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Photography
Why do professional photographers charge so much?

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Why do professional photographers charge so much?

Photography
David Bickley

This article is written by a member of our expert community. It expresses that member’s views only. We welcome other perspectives. Here’s how to contribute to MM EDU.

This question presents itself all the time, and I’d like to try to shed some light on the subject (pun totally intended).

So… let’s begin.

As with any other job, we get paid for our time—but not just the time behind the camera. Truth be told, that’s only a third or so of what we put into a shoot. You have to consider that a shoot of three to four looks can take anywhere from 2 to 10 hours, depending on stylists, makeup artists, travel time to different locations, and so on.

That’s not considering the time we put in before and after the shoot—which we will address in a minute.

Let’s say, for example, you are paying $500 for a shoot where you get four looks, no stylist, no MUA. Just you and what you bring.

Five hundred dollars and 5 hours of shooting (just to keep our math simple), works out to be $100 per hour. Not a bad gig, right? Right—kinda. It would be stellar if our work began and ended with the shoot.

Before the shoot, a photographer may spend 20 minutes planning out locations, or he may spend a couple of hours. If you’ve met with the photographer beforehand to discuss the shoot, factor that in as well. Let’s keep it simple again and say that you and the photographer meet for an hour (in person or on the phone) to discuss outfits and the general plan for what you two will set out to create. You are going to shoot in the studio, so there are no locations to plan out.

Now we’re at six hours of work for a five-hour shoot.

This photo was part of an 8 hour session with a makeup artist, hair stylist and wardrobe stylist. After the session another 4 hours were spent in post production to get the image ready for print.

After the session, we have to go through the images and not only select the best out of hundreds of shots, but also edit them. Editing doesn’t always consist of spot-removing blemishes, often times it is more about alterations in color and exposure of the shot. Those things are vital. I will say things like “basic edits” throughout this article and when I do I’m generally referring to things like proper retouching techniques that preserve image integrity not a system of plugins or actions. Automated systems of image manipulation often leave damage that render the file unusable for high-end commercial work. Proper basic retouching does take longer and there aren’t many good shortcuts. We won’t even address the advanced methods, I don’t believe there is an accurate way to break down the time involved.

That said, I usually spend at least another 4-5 hours selecting and performing basic edits. So again, to keep things simple, let’s say five more hours of work.

Now we are at 11 hours of work for a shoot that took half as long. This brings the rate down to about $45.50 per hour. That is still a nice paycheck but definitely a hefty cut.

Now let’s consider the fee the photographer has to pay for the studio that you get to enjoy the comforts of. For the rent and utilities in a small office, $1,500 per month is a generously low statement. At that rate, in an average month of 30 days, it would cost $50 per 8-hour day just to open the door of the studio. That takes out another $6.25 per hour, putting us at $39.25.

This photo was from a 2 hour session. After the session it took an hour to select the best images, and another 30 minutes to retouch this shot.

Basically, the photographer has made $450 and given up 11 hours of his day. But wait, he had to hire an assistant for 5 hours at $10 per hour. Make that $400. If we work that out really quickly, we see that $400 for 11 hours of work drops our rate down to just under $30 per hour. We can plug that into a standard 40-hour workweek over the course of a full year, and it brings us to an annual salary of $62,400.

At first glance, it seems like a lot. Honestly it is… before self-employment tax, health insurance, liability insurance, and equipment insurance. In 2011, the self-employment tax is 13.3%. That instantly takes $62,400 down to $54,100. Nearly a $10,000 hit just for being our own boss!

Taxes and general business expenses are well beyond the intention of this post—so let’s end there with them.

This photo was from another 2 hour session. It took at least 4 hours to scout and secure this location before the shoot, and an additional 2 after the shoot to select, retouch and upload to the client.

A lot of photographers will justify the cost of a shoot by the expense of their equipment. I’ve seen comments like this:

“How much a photographer spends on the equipment he or she uses to shoot the model should not affect how much you charge a model. It is not our fault you spend so much on your equipment.”

I guess in a way you are right. However, you are most certainly benefiting from the expenditure. After all, my main camera alone cost near $8,000 without the lenses. Without the camera, we would both just be looking at each other for a few hours. The quality of the equipment with which you are being photographed does matter. If the photographer is shooting you with a 6-year-old base model digital SLR like the Digital Rebel and a kit lens, you are going to get a good photo that will work pretty well for an 8 x 10 or a comp card. But the photographer most likely will not be able to submit your images to any publications, stock agencies, ad agencies, etc. The demand for high-resolution, high-quality images is simply too great today to be able to get away with less.

If the photographer is using a mid- to pro-level camera and top-quality glass, the game changes. Suddenly, that image can go anywhere it needs to, and you don’t need to be concerned about quality or usability in various media.

30 minutes to set up the lighting, 15 minutes to get the right shot, 20 minutes for retouching.

Yes, of course, the costs of doing business and the upgraded equipment are all a factor in what the professional photographer will charge. However, what you are really paying for are the years of practice it takes to make the images that you receive possible. Not to mention the sheer talent that many photographers bring to the table. Creativity has value. We are the best at what we do, and we charge what we deserve to make.

Sometimes there are no large expenses on a shoot. Sometimes you don’t use anything but a camera and the sun. No assistants. No stylists. Shoots like that will definitely affect where the photographer allocates funds in their business, but it’s unlikely that it will affect the bottom line. In fact on a commercial invoice those items are usually billed separately from the photographer’s fee.

Now let’s address the amount of photos you get back from the shoot. A 3-to-4-look shoot generally nets about fifteen good photos, five great ones. That really is not many, I know. This is where the model really needs to give up and trust the photographer. People make mistakes. Maybe in one shot the model was not quite right in his pose, or maybe the photographer didn’t get the angle he was looking for. Either way, you are building a portfolio and should include only the best options.

“Why not give me a CD and let me choose the photos I want to use?”

Good question. YOU are the one in the photos, and everyone is overly critical of himself. Often, other people will have an open and unbiased opinion of what looks good and what does not, not to mention the fact that established photographers already know what the agencies are looking for because they have probably worked with them before. The photographer’s choices give you an advantage because now you have the best shots—already geared towards the agencies you are hoping to reach.

20 minutes to build the set, 30 minutes to set up the lighting, 1 hour shooting, 1 hour retouching.

“I already paid for the shoot. Now I have to pay for prints?”

Absolutely, unless it was a TFP shoot. Prints cost us to produce, which results in a cost to the model.

“What is TFP?”

I still don’t see what the big mystery is about this. TFP means “time for prints.” The photographer gets your time, and you get a set number of prints. The photographer’s payment is the fact that you came; your payment is some photos. TFP is usually used only by people just starting out; however, some photographers will consider TFP based on the model’s potential or a concept they want to create and need volunteers for.

Personally, the only time I do TFP is when someone has an idea that inspires me. I do not pay models for their time. They have more to gain than I do at this point. I realize that sounds arrogant, but it is true. An established photographer is already making a living, as is an established model. There has to be a very good reason to give out time for free when I can be paying my bills instead. Generally speaking, the photographers who offer you a CD of your shoot free-of-charge have not been in this business very long. You each need the help of the other party.

Not including the flight to California, this shot took 8 hours to scout for before the shoot. 2 hours of shooting and about 30-40 minutes for basic retouching.

Having worked both sides of this industry, I know that sometimes it does not seem to make sense. Ask yourself this though: If Michelangelo painted a portrait of you, would you question why the price of the piece is so high? No – because no one else could paint like him, and as the saying goes: “you get what you pay for.” Of course we have expenses and those are often far higher than what people expect. Yes, they do play a role in what we charge, but in the end you are paying the photographer because of their visual style and what they can do for your career.

The images you take for your portfolio are an investment in your future as a model. If you are serious about modeling, then it is time to start looking at it like a business. You are the product, and you need amazing images to sell that product to its fullest potential. The bottom line is that regardless of what we charge, if you don’t have enough faith in yourself to invest in your dream, why would anyone else?

David Bickley

David Bickley is an internationally published photographer specializing in portraiture and fitness photography. He is based in Kansas City, KS and has been shooting professionally for 8 years. http://www.davidbickley.com/

Lesuememoriephotography

Thank you so much for this informative information! I’m a new photographer and hate to say it but most people don’t get it like you do! I’m going to share this! Thanks! Nancy Le sue Memorie Photography (Detroit, MI)
Trying2

Thanks for telling this.
Michael

Well done. A good exposition. If I may add some comments, I feel you can’t “plug the rate into a 40 hour week” as you will only be working for clients for half the time, the other half will be marketing yourself unless you are at the top of your game with a waiting list of clients. You may well be doing 40 hours of paid work – if you’re very lucky – but your working week will probably be 60 to 80 hours. Either way the annual salary starts to look very inadequate. As to studios, if you are hiring one for the shoot the cost will be added on, and you have to factor in the replacement cost of equipment to remain competitive, a write down over 3 years would be sensible, or you can hire cameras and lenses as needed. Either way that’s also expensive. Frightening isn’t it!

Hank

Sorry, but if you’re working 60-80 hours a week, or even 40, I feel like you must be doing something wrong.

I became a freelancer to have more time and freedom. If I start getting too busy, I raise my rates, and make the same money for less work. I had 91 days of work so far in 2011. The rest of the time I have been traveling and enjoying life. But if you enjoy all 80 hours, then keep going.

Keriphotography

Very professionally explained and illustrated. Thank you!
Juliarabkinphotography

perfect. thank you.

Alex

all i know is when i am getting paid for a professional photo shoot for an ad campaign/etc. -where i am making the money-they sure don’t wanna keep you any longer than need be.-so that shooter better hurry up and get the money shot(lol)… and on the same flp side if i am paying a shooter i am going to be as tidy,quick and organized as i can (with storyboard for my shoot if it saves time/effort)

.on the ‘other’ flip side some shooters take more time than others to ‘get that shot’ others dont…some models pay alot for images by some of the better shooters and get nothing-where some models get the best shots of their life….you do want to find an experienced shooter no doubt…but the higher the price the nicer the nice-does not always apply…some shooters retouch some don’t do it at all- some only a tad for minor things(which i find is best)..

Ken Marcus

Only us ‘old guys’ would know this, but . . . are you aware that most rates for photographers haven’t increased since the early 1970′s ??

You used to be able to get a professional photographer to come out to a location and photograph something for a client and deliver a professional looking result that could be used for a variety of uses for about $400.

It seems to be about the same rate today, except that costs have skyrocketed and profits have diminished greatly.

Gas was about 25 cents a gallon in those days, and you could rent a large studio for about $800.oo a month. You can’t get anywhere near that today, yet the pay is the same.

There could be a lot of reasons for this, including the fact that most photographers are horrible at business and don’t know what their services are worth or what they should charge to break even (let alone make a profit)

True, there are still some top professionals that make a good living and get paid top dollar . . . but they are few and far between.

The unfortunate fact of all this is that as long as photographers continue to think that they should be paid by how much time was involved, rather than what the usage fee should be, then photography will remain one of the most underpaid, exploited industries in the country.

Ken Marcus

C Drzymalski

Why do professional photographers charge so much’

Because the client/adv agency/design know they are going to get results of a consistent standard.
The photographer is answering the given brief. A professional understands how to capture images that are right for a client’s business and convey the message required
Leosimages

Ken,
You are So right. I strongly believe one reason for this is (especially today) that EVERYONE who spends more $400 on a camera calls himself “A photographer,” and works for little to nothing. these guys/gals have destroyed the business.
aside from a few talented ones, these “GWC” are the reason brides and grooms look for photographers who will accept $300 to shoot thir wedding.

How can a guy like you (me) charge $1,500?
I trained under one of the country’s best wedding photographers (Bart Stevens) and couples forked over thousands of dollars every week-for many years to have him capture their “special day.”

And those images still do, and will forever, stand the test of time. They will hold their own for as long as humans are on this planet-and beyond.

Where will the images shot by “The nephew of the girl who works with my maid of honor,” stand in time???

Good luck,
Leonardo

http://www.facebook.com/people/June-Snow/100002396365602 June Snow

I agree completely. I believe models should be paying to build their ports for their careers in modeling. They should be paid by companies that want to use their images for promotional (fashion, advertising, etc.) purposes. Most of the time, the company will see the model’s port and choose them out of a batch of applicants – in which case the company will most likely have a photographer on contract that they use to photograph the model. That is when he/she will be paid for his/her time.

Promotions aside, if a model is simply building his/her portfolio, he/she should pay for services rendered.

In order to choose which photographer to use, he/she will sort through a batch of photographer portfolios. This is when the photographer will opt for TFP – when their portfolio is lacking.

The general practice is this:

-Model pays Photographer when: building Model portfolio and wishes to include high quality/experienced photos.
-Photographer pays Model when: requiring a specific shoot to be included in Photographer portfolio (for example: nudes) or chooses to use a popular model.
-TFP when: building a port or excited about a particular model/photographer/shoot idea. (So, basically, when the scenario inspires a free shoot!)

I modeled for a little while for fun & just got into photography.. but I’ve worked with some great photographers & models and they’ve taught me so much. I understand more than I ever thought I would about this business & I love it! It’s all completely fair practice and I am so glad that I’ve been on both sides of the camera. I can truly appreciate how much harder and more stressful being the photographer is!! But everyone’s a winner in my book.

Go team!
haha

xoxo
OldsPhotography

Funny how it’s all photographers reading and commenting on this. I still don’t think models on here get it. I doubt internet models will ever get it. Plus there are way too many ok amateur photographers still doing the work for free and many models can’t tell the difference in the photos. It’s so frustrating having to justify charging for portfolio shoots.

http://twitter.com/TreatandThreads Treatsandthreads.com

Stop justifying. Let the work speak for it’s self. The GOOD models will understand.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Estella-Heuslein-Photography/100002551444863 Estella Heuslein-Photography

I think thats funny. I read a thread earlier and the photographer said asking me to pay you for a shoot is like going to starbucks and expecting a free cup of coffee or going to the movie and expecting to get in for free. If you want something worth while you have to pay for it. Just like we have to pay for our equipment and our studio etc to pursue our passion in art. I do some trade because I am young and I am still learning, but I refuse to pay a model. For that I am sorry, but it is the way of the world.

Ddpphotographynyc

David, this was the BEST explanation regarding what we do that I have seen to date. I join the rest of the professional photographers here to say “Thank You”!! You get, I get it, Professional Photographer’s get it, but the wanna be Models do not.
DDP
http://www.facebook.com/christophe.vivant.CoiLLoTe Christophe Vivant

Good job David, in fatc you didn’t mension the whole producing machine.
What about computers, software, calibrating devices, sorting database software … profiling knowledge and so …
This also cost a lot.
Philipe

I don’t agree with that. Your breaking down with hours and expenses.
In reality, models want to pay for your look and style.
I did an editorial shoot for a magazine with natural lighting, hair make up did took about an hour, the actual shoot was about an hour and a half. So the shoot was about three hours with arriving setting up my camera etc.. It did not cost me really anything. (the make up was basic)
Photographers try to justify it by saying they have expenses.
We all have expenses. But so does the model, with travel, clothing, getting a stylist and sometime turning down paid work to shoot.

I have a friend who did a shoot for 10,000.
With natural light. He shot near the desert.
No make up not hair, just a spray bottle with water and baby oil and suntan lotion.
The expenses, almost nothing, he shot alone with no help (with me watching and helping the model get ready)and for the client (three of them) The shoot lasted around 4 hours. No retouching, everything natural.
So how do you justify expenses? Assistants? Touching up hours?
The client brought food, water and a tent and my friend made $10,000.00

So what did the client pay for?
They paid for his expertise, professional look and style of the photo.
Thats the only thing the client or anyone should pay for.
Expenses, time, equipment etc… Don’t mean jack if the photos are not good.
The photography charged what he did because he can.

I never once told a model “I charge this much because I have bills or expenses”
I do tell them I charge what I do. Because its what I charge (I also do hair and make up too) which means a little more…

But a model never hired me because of the type of lights I use or camera.
Its because how I use it and in some cases, use no lights, just natural lighting.

http://www.facebook.com/christophe.vivant.CoiLLoTe Christophe Vivant

Part of a truth.
How many professionnal photographer did you know or did you think they are ?
How many persons, photographer, by the world can descently ask 10 000$ a shoot ?

So, how many $ may I ask for a 4 hours shoot and how much David LaChapelle should ?
http://twitter.com/johnmcduffie John McDuffie

Who is this friend that commands a $10k shoot? I don’t care who does what or how basic it is. I charge for my time. It takes time to set up a set. It takes time to do the shoot. Then there is post processing that takes even more time. Every minute I spend on setup, shooting and processing is a minute I am not earning money someplace else.
So excuse me if I find your comments lacking credibility. You also posted anonymously which lends even less to us finding truth in your comments. “But a model never hired me because of the type of lights I use or camera.” – POS camera? 1999 Minolta?

http://twitter.com/TreatandThreads Treatsandthreads.com

apparently you haven’t seen or know the amazing stuff High end editorial fashion photographers churn out. What they can command. You make real money when you have CLIENTS. A client is usually a publication or corporation.

http://twitter.com/TreatandThreads Treatsandthreads.com

I agree. You figure out what feels comfortable for you to charge and justify it. When it rocks you only get better and deserve better.

Still you will do tf. Still you will hook up people.
When money is made, you share the profit accordingly.

If I have a more monied client that can afford to pay 100 an hour I give them what I think they want. If I work with someone who pays 0 an hour I give them what I think they want. What they both have in common- they both come for interpretations and vision. Some get more than they expected.
Miguel A. Ramos

That’s awesome your friend has the God given ability and talent to pull off shoots like that. However, you can’t take this one example as the standard for all shoots and how to price them. Sometimes you have to charge gigs on a case by case basis. I’m positive your friend is super talented, and I’m sure he did not always have the great camera he must have now, and at some point he started off on a lower quality camera. While it’s true that your talent should be your biggest selling and marketing point, do you think he could get away with shooting with a camera with lesser than 10 mega pixels and still make $10,000 off that same shoot? I have some excellent photos that I made when I first picked up a digital camera. My first cam was a Canon Powershot S2 IS. I knew how to shoot with that cam and had a way of editing the photos to push the quality to its furthest limit. But still, I couldn’t market myself as a professional photographer. I had to get something better, I had to appear as a professional as much as develop my skill and learn my craft. I eventually moved up to the cam. I have now, and my equipment and skill are at the least equally respectable.

My point is, as much talent as one may have with their photography, you eventually reach the quality limit of your equipment or get beat out by the next guy who has the latest and greatest piece of equipment. Equipment is expensive and to stay afloat, photographers have to be able to sustain their business as if it was another person, as well as make a living, by changing with the times and obtaining better stuff.

Let me ask you this, as a make up artist, would you walk into a professional gig with dollar store make up and expect people to take you seriously, or would you go out and purchase the more expensive quality make up that you can rely on and is a better product for your client? You’d still have the talent and ability you have today, but your “equipment” will limit you.

It’s this reason why photographers charge more for the better, more reliable, higher quality, more expensive, better trusted, durable, highly prized, equipment. Better quality equipment (that must be paid and compensated for) in turn gives the customer a better product.

Last example and I’m done:
A Kia and a Mercedes will both get you to your destination…. but we all know which one is the better quality car.
Marcelo

I think the more obvious point is simply, you do not see that the real time you are paying for is not the time spent on the shoot or retouching or setting up, people pay the big money for the time a professional has spent learning his trade. Giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying this is all true (i doubt it all) the client is always paying for time, the time it took to develop the style and learn the expertise.

Miss Adventure Photography

I think if, as stated by another photographer, a model cannot tell the difference between an amateur and a pro, then that REALLY says a LOT about why models don’t want to pay. Why would I pay (as a model) $100/hr on some guy that spends 4 hours retouching a single photo? Retouching is not the models fault, if you can’t get the photo right, and you need to mess around for that long, maybe a career change is in order. :-s

I’m a photographer, and yeah I have rates like everyone else, but i sure as hell don’t ever need to spend that kind of time retouching a photo, unless im ripping it apart and building an entirely new photo in CS5.

Captured Impulse

Retouching is not the model’s “fault?”

You’re kidding, right? I don’t like to use the word “fault,” but as far as I know, no one retouches many sets or locations. Almost everyone I know retouches skin, eyes, noses, hair, lips, ponches, fat folds, scars, zits, moles, birthmarks, tats, jawlines, abs, boobs, butts, cellulite, smile lines, the droopy “dead eye,” elastic “digs” into the skin, etc, etc, etc…

…because glam is not real.

It never has been, it was never intended to be, and it never will be.

Anonymous

i have some pretty strict regulations for my models, if i want a model with no ponch, i HIRE a model with no ponch. There are many times I hold off on a shoot till i find the right model. Zits,tatts and moles.. a good makeup artist can fix that

I also don’t shoot glam i shoot natural, and the photos above are definitely not glam either.

Just sayin

Anthony Neste

I like the break down …but i also agree with Philipe some…The Model want’s your talent and style ,that’s why she came to you in the first place…The whole break down you display is perfect for the inexperienced model the one that thinks she’s shopping at Target , getting the best deal not the best Images. And if you get ur basic retouching skills more fine tuned there is no way any Image with basic work should take more than 15 min tops.
Zokrx2

This is great I’m so glad you put this up. I have been saying this for the long time now . Glad to see someone else is on the same page . Thanks
http://www.facebook.com/davidbickley David Bickley

Thank you everyone for the feedback, the article will be edited to reflect some oversights in my explanations that have been pointed out.

-D
Andy Pearlman

Philipe wrote “… So what did the client pay for?
They paid for his expertise, professional look and style of the photo.
Thats the only thing the client or anyone should pay for….”

Actually I’ll bet a big part of that $10k fee was for usage. In that realm, the clients are paying for the photographer’s vision, sometimes his reputation, but also (and probably mostly) usage. Philipe didn’t say what the photos were used for, but I doubt it was editorial pr a portfolio, most likely some kind of advertising – magazine, posters, billboards, etc. That is where you get into those kinds of fees, which, and here’s where I agree with Philipe, have nothing to do with equipment or watching the clock.
Tommy

The time or the “shoot” is only a small part of the time it takes to produce the finished project. The model has gone home with nothing else to do, while the photographer is faced with hours of work to finish the “shoot”.
Seroti

The best blog I have seen on MM so far!
Thanks for sharing. It is very comprehensive and educational.
firetiger

“After all, my main camera alone cost near $8,000 without the lenses. Without the camera, we would both just be looking at each other for a few hours. ”

this made me chuckle… now i have chocolate milk on my monitor. thanks!

+1 with Christophe Vivant
http://www.facebook.com/davidbickley David Bickley

The article has been revised to expand on a few things that were slightly miscommunicated in the original.

First was the fact that I refer to “basic edits” which are not actually so basic. Commercial level editing is far more involved than your general spot-healing and curve tweaks. There is also a piece of that where I’m playing with different variations on an image to see which result works the best overall. Sometimes these edits can take 10 minutes, sometimes hours. I refer to them as basic because they are simple fundamentals.

Second was that some seemed to think that I intended to justify pricing based solely on expenses which is a very retail way of looking at things and one that I am generally very against using as a means of explanation. I do think it’s important that people realize that being a photographer is actually pretty expensive and that we do have costs to take care of. However the biggest point to be made is that an artist charges what their talent is worth.

Hopefully the edits address those points better now.

Thank you all for the feedback!

-David

http://www.facebook.com/jagentis Jacqueline Agentis

Your article was great and will share… At first, time relative to expense is most likely the first thing that crosses a model’s mind. Knowing the work that culminates into a fantastic finished piece helps. Not only does a photographer need to be technically and creatively talented (with the camera, composition, and with lighting; which is hard enough to get in one person) but also talented in post processing. …and if you’re lucky, an inspiring vision.

If one performs true High Glamour high-end non-destructive post, it will take hours. You would always use hi res raw files (never jpg), and would not apply quickee techniques like gaussian blur, plugins, presets, etc. It is an art form I think, and does take hours. Talent in all these areas is special and has worth!

Jacqueline C Agentis
JCAgentisPhotography
Lehigh Valley Headshots

http://www.facebook.com/brooklynhillphotography Brooklyn Hill

This is a good breakdown of the value of good/great/amazing photographers. You really do “get what you pay for” and while a solid port can be built on TF*, a great port can be achieved in half the time by paying great photographers. You get out what you put in.
Jamaal E.

None photographers have no idea the work a photographer does. a photographer is the one responsiblr for getting the permits to shoot locations, hire make up artist, wardrobe if the actres/model doesn’t provid their own, hireing a crew to assist a with equipment, doing the post shoot work, printing out these photos, buying all those ink cartiges (do you know how much ink a pro level printer cost? or how frequent you have to buy new ink?). Photographing is like 5% of what a photographer actually does. Hours and hours of prep work, hours of shooting, and hours and hours and hours of post shoot work. You guys really have NO idea.
Dave

many thanks for sharing a very well thought out post.
R Bishop

As a makeup artist who tries to work with the best, I agree with this article. Even with models or photographers who have no problem doing time for print I STILL PAY. of course everyone doesn’t turn it down because it’s more then they ask… But I feel like it’s the right thing to do ESPECIALLY since I’m NOT a Model nor a photographer, and I’m not gonna be all 3 !
David Wilson

Very Very true David. Thank you!
smc photographer

We indeed I dont get into the cost justification discussion as i feel that my work is worth paying for. I have no problem with people bartering or asking for discounts (they might not gey them) but i don have a problem with people asking me to justify my cost. When I started in photography (profeshionally) i was always getting into long winded arguments with people over this but my usual response now is.
If you go to the super market and pick up a tin of beans at £1.25 you dont take it to the cheak out and say “how come you charge £1.25 for these beans surly they cost you pense” you buy the beans because you want beans. In the same way people who want to work with you and see your work as profeshional will not question the price.

You get what you pay for!
If they question the price then they dont believe i your work and if you question your price you dont believe in yourself.

I believe in charging fairly and that means sometimes you dont get the booking.
which would you rather?
10 jobs @ £1000
or 100 jobs @£10???

Stuart

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EOGVXGR3D435GRH75VDDBH2YT4 B

Excellent justification, lol. Loved it and May have to use something along those lines.

Mr Doug

well written and applies to just about any self-employed endeavor.
David

this is possibly one of the most ridiculous amateur pieces of fripery I have ever read.

Right from the start the title is silly. What is the deinition of “so much’? In the past couple years, I have made as much as $25,000 in fees for a single day shoot and as little as $500 for a 3 day shoot (wanna send me to the Greek islands, and let me stay an extra 3 weeks traveling around at your expense, my fee goes way way down.) Funny thing is that when all was said and done and I sold stock shots from my vacation, I problably made a decent day rate for the entire trip. It is the usage fees that drives everything.

I get paid for my knowledge and experiece, nothing else. It does not matter if a shoot takes 10 more minutes more or less for scouting or post production or anything else. I am paid a USAGE fee, all the other expenses (stylist, location scout, post production, etc) are just that expenses that are charges to the client. The equipment is a minimal cost.

If we are talking about MM, look around, I am sure it will be quite obvious that you get what you pay for. You want to spend $100/day for your modeling portfolio, you are going to get $100 looking photos. (Yeah, if you happen to be the next supermodel of the world and get lucky finding a great photographer who will work with you, you may get great images for nothing. There are rare exception – I and every other photogrpaher will work for very little. Again, wanna send me to the islands for a couple weeks and make me only shoot a couple shots, lets talk.)

It is YOUR time and EXPERIENCE! Stop undervalueing yourselves photographers.
Andrew

Yeah….but there are so many new ways of making $ with photography and modeling.

Perhaps this has been the standard, but I’ve never gotten paid by a model to shoot her, and I’ve always paid models to shoot them, and I’ve always made money with my work.

The people who refuse to understand the “real” costs of shooting photos, which this article was written for, are the same as those who refuse to understand that there are more than a couple ways to make an income shooting photos.
Klixbykelly

Very good explanation…… I hope EVERYONE reads this!
Rudy Liverpool

Hey everybody point was well said. @ June Snow: I agree with Ur comment, models building their port should pay. If I’m goin to use Ur picture to make money, U as the model will get compensation. But if it’s jus a portfolio builder then we but should jus shoot and help each other. Overall it’s was a nice topic. Thanks David Bickley.
Info

Good job David and thank you for taking time to post this. One thing I disagree with is having prices based on price of equipment used. As you know the better quality studio lights you use is better color and also can be lighting you get out of it. I have used from cheap $200 to $2,000 strobes. All things set the same and the quality of the photos can easily be noticed by any person for which photo with the more expensive strobe. Even when it comes to cameras as I multiple cameras. So if a person is on a budget and can’t afford to pay to where would be worth using the updated camera I use my old camera.

One thing as we all photographers probably agree is as you mentioned there is more to the models then there is the photographers in the shoots. It is a lot easier for a model to invest in the photos then it is photographers who already have a portfolio.

I wish every classified site made it mandatory for people to read your post before posting the need for a photographer.
Anonymous

Thank you for a great article! It was very insightful and I love the way you wrote it in a patient manner not only meant for photographers. Hopefully articles like yours will help others to understand the value of a good photographer.
Superkgggg

This all depends on what type of photographer you are. Your typically getting paid for your time and creativity in my field.

1. post production takes time.
2. shooting takes time
3. your ideas take time to create

That didn’t account for the amenities:
Equipment isn’t cheap
Electricity isn’t cheap

Come on people! You get what you pay for.
Dolsen4fashion

Nice! Accurate description of the current newbie mindset. The one I love is, “just give me the files and I can print them at home. I have a new inkjet” or, “It’s only $2.99 at [BigBoxStore]“, or “I just got photoshop, I can retouch them myself”. Like we are monkeys who just push buttons and we should be grateful that they dropped by the cage.

Not so long ago, the agent made the call, and the model didn’t worry about the cost because she knew it would be great. They came to us because of our style.

It’s the Age of Entitlement, everything for free and instant gratification…. -But I still love what I do, even after a thirty-year shift from 4×5 Sinar P’s to a sweet chip in a 35.
http://www.facebook.com/nicoprincely Nico Simon Princely

I agree with most of what you said but I also agree with Philipe about “In reality, models want to pay for your look and style.” And also your name if you are well known.

A lot of models on here (generally the less experienced ones) seem to think it’s all about them they want to live in the fantasy of being the star that someone just has to shoot.

I have endless TF offers from models and often they get offended if I say I’m not doing TF right now or I’m only doing a certain type and I’m going to charge them if we shoot. They think they are bringing everything to the table but the truth is we put in much more time and effort on a shoot and with very few exceptions they are the easiest to replace of all people involved. And TF does not pay the bills unless it’s something you can recoup your costs on by selling the image later.

They will probably never understand that until the get behind the camera themselves. Don’t get me wrong I highly value models but I also expect to be highly valued myself.
Tjphoto

I find it amazing that most people SAY they got into photography because they love taking photos etc. But the reality is vastly different. Most photographers and models are nothing but walking arrogant people who wish to show off. AND charge a fortune.
Clp40e

I agree with what you wrote, I know no kidding you’re right.

The comment below doesn’t make any sense about no expense on equipment. What about up dating computer systems all the time.

I just updated my camera and now I have to up date photo shop again for the third time, not to mention another computer to deal with the new program etc. etc. etc.

Also if anyone thinks you’re wrong they are a fool and are not paying real bills as you mentioned.

Below the person said the desert shots was only the camera and equipment doesn’t mean anything unless the shot looks good.

Well you explained about that. I mean I have been shooting professionally for 18 years started in film. My bottom pro camera, Nikon would shoot just as good as the Nikon top of the line, it just didn’t have all the extras on it. I didn’t need it for what I shot, but the lenses were the same hence same quality.

But this digital age isn’t the same, I noticed not only the way my new camera works making it easier to change settings during a shoot but the quality of the images are better. Again no kidding, but I can see it in the back of the camera. Hence you are spending money up dating all the time.

Like your article it’s about time someone explained the real side of costs.
Rhomsy

I love the newbie model that refuses to do TF and her portfolio consists of cell phone photos that she took of herself in the mirror. Talk about not getting it.

Mzre yuen

Omg I totally agree lol Or the infamous holding the camera out and taking their own pics. lmao how can someone claim to be a model if they have never been professionally photographed. Then they are too good to do tf when they clearly need it to build their port

Leosimages

…And, they have the nerve to say they “have been modeling for X number of years,” and to TELL photographers that that WILL bring an escort. Sweetheart, your portfolio says it all-look at your “bathroom-mirror” shots and shut up!

Info

Finally! Great Article. If more photographers would value you their work and the whole photography community in general. They would clearly understand that buying a cheap camera and shooting for free is beyond disrespectful to any real photographer out there. And models who expect shoots or free well we already know how that story goes.

Great post!
http://twitter.com/KennethAston Kenneth Aston Jr

Here is another post why PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHERS cost so much, not charge. There are a lot of expenses that have to be paid for and when you are contracting your services you, as a professional photographer, need to be aware of that.

http://debraw.wordpress.com/why-do-professional-photographers-cost-so-much/
kibblesnbits

i think its funny that half the photographers that are bitching probably are just as, “amateur” as the ones they are criticizing for doing tfp. You will be hard pressed to find an actually good photographer complain about it because their work speaks for itself and they are very well connected in the industry. Instead of all the “self proclaimed” photographers that enjoy playing dress up and whining quit living in denial. You are posting on model mayhem one of the grimiest and sketchy places in existence i know my way around quite well and its very hard to find any “real” photographer that uses this site seriously almost anyone can take a picture now. and a good model shit half of the real idea of the shoot comes from a good collab with the photographer and the model… half of these so called, “photographers” tell the model to do something and have no vision and you can get the same shit with a completely new person with a half decent camera… get a fucking life seriouisly.
WForrest Photography

Starting rates for commercial half day – full day, Casting handled by respective agency. Im the shooter first and foremost, then any editing they can hire me for that as well other wise its shot and handed over to them. My first goal is to shoot so that Min to Nil post production is needed. Im in shoot and out HOWEVER aval for an additional cost to cast any position needed such as the Talent that may be needed if a model is casted. Im not about to wash and polish a Car to shoot unless they hire me to do that too Either way the process first is hire me to shoot it. After that the cost increases. So as u see no matter what the situation is the shooter gets the paid rate of their worth THEN adapts to each case as it need be…Easy math it is. Its easier to do flat rates based on the Half and Full day this way.
4-6hrs on Post Production? Sorry I have better things to do with my life than sit for that long and do such a silly thing. 4-6 Minutes and Im board with it and consider it a lost shot if I have to do that much to it….

ALEX

you are truly a fucking shooter..i am a model and i really dont want 8 hour retouched photos(by a shooter) hell is this shooter or retoucher?) lol..cuz it aint gonna look like me in the end=THIS IS INSANE) how do casting agents do it-then when i get to a audition they say “wow! you look like your comp card”…Duhhhhhhh! or are they getting dumber…)…thats right you are a shooter first- so shoot that shit and shoot it well and i will be the model to do what i need to do to look my best before and in front of the camera..flat rates yes i do understand them…and you are right a touch ‘up’ here or there for size..but you are not trying to create a new image…GOOD REPLY!

http://www.facebook.com/djjaraksource Daniel Wysocki

I agree 100%.
Amaresh

great article!! many also dont realise that pro photographers turn up to a shoot with some $40,000 worth of gear to do it all proper.. for most its hard earned bucks through blood, sweat and tears.. over and above the years of going through and working things out to get the experience and abilities… there are hobby guys with a camera [GWC's] out there with their 550D cam’s posing to be photographers. They may shoot for free or cheap.. but good photographers charge good money.. its also good to charge as it helps those wanting to be models to take it seriously and be something and go somewhere if they pay. Really grat article and rationale DB.
Markman

I’ll be honest: I tried giving this article a fair chance. I think I might have been annoyed, right from the beginning, when MM introduced the author as a member of their “expert community” (I’d not seen that title in previous EDU articles) but was still willing to read through to see what this expert had to say.

Perhaps I simply have a different outlook because of my day job – but I’ll share my view on the whole “total fee vs. hours worked” thing:

Some of you may know that I’m an attorney. I occasionally take contingency fee cases. What this means is that I don’t get paid up front and only get paid if the client recovers money (via judgment or settlement.)

If I go into Court and settle a case, pre-trial, for $100,000, my fee is $33,333.33. If I do that, I take the money, put it in the bank and move on the next case. I don’t stop to figure out how many hours I put into the case. I don’t stop to apportion my office overhead; i.e. to figure out how much of my phone bill, office rent, copier lease, payroll, taxes, insurance, office supplies, utilities . . .etc. went into that fee.

The next week, I may have to actually go to trial. I can put hundreds of hours into the case and may wind up settling, before verdict, for $75,000.00, out of which, my attorneys fee is $25,000.00.

That’s a smaller fee for more hours.

Do I stop and do and figure out my hours vs. expenses on the second case? Nope. Ya know what I do? I put the $25,000 in the bank and gear up for the next case.

The bottom line: any day I can put money into the bank is a good day. If you want to analyze each individual fee – you’ll reach no logical conclusion nor establish any beneficial formula for which cases to take and which cases not to take. The goal is to put money in the bank. If I wanted to figure out how much money I make per hour, I wouldn’t be self-employed. I’d get a job that pays an hourly salary.

The author’s business model does not really work for someone who is self-employed. The only thing that’s relevant is how much, at the end of the year, your business is making more money than it’s spending. And, if it’s not making more than it’s costing, then it’s time to find a different business.

I’ll end my lecture there – other than to point out that the “expert” apparently owes the government a lot of money. He is apparently operating under the mistaken impression that self-employment tax is 13.3% This is something he may want to keep to himself; lest the Federal Government comes calling for its additional 2%.

This is also the type of blatant misstatement of fact (or violation of law) that the site should probably monitor before presenting these articles to us as “Expert”

John

I tend to agree with this comment. Rather than evaluating each individual job’s profit margin, I find it better to evaluate all jobs as a whole for the year. Do I have more money this year than I did last year, for example.

I find this allows me to spend more time making money than figuring out how much I made.
Dre

Apparently you have no clue how to account for anything and you may already be out of business.

Regardless, your comment is one of the dumbest things I read in a long time. With the caveat that you many only have yourself and live in your moms basement, then I suppose your comment may have some validity. However, if you have a staff, and office, utility payments, and during the course of business, you are putting 25K in the bank and don’t pay your staff, and other bills, then you probably run a crappy practice.

Not knowing if you’re earning enough to cover the cost of having said expenses, you’re more then likely doing it wrong. I agree with you on the ‘keeping the 13.3% thing to himself’, however you are completely wrong about the additional 2%. There is no real actual tax percentage that you can say a person or entity must pay without looking at the complete tax situation. One for-profit entity grossing 100K can pay 25% while another for-profit entity grossing the same amount may not have any tax liability will equals 0%.

Your statement really is one of the absolute dumbest things I read and is the type of blatant evidence proving that an educated person clearly does not indicate intelligence.

I’ll end my lecture with this – the post was intended to explain to photographers, models, and clients why it cost so much to get photos taken. And lightly touches on some of the expenses involved in running a photography business and why the client has to pay “so much”. It does not cover guys with a camera looking for girls to meet and shoot girls naked because he’s an schmuck attorney with a few extra dollars to foolishly spend. Get a life and get off MM, this is a professional site for professional people. It’s losers like you that make this profession bad for professionals like me.
YouHaveNoClue

I have to agree with Dre… you must be living for free… I have had to hire a lawyer and everything they do is billable even a copy for a piece of paper.. lucky you have a day job and doing photography on a hobbyist basis…
Anonymous

@Markman: Regardless of what you charge, there is still a minimal operations cost. The point of the article was an attempt to explain why a professional photographer charges the rate s/he does. In your rebuttal, you fail to answer the question even for your own profession.

As for your opinion, regarding the use of the word ‘expert’, that it is a blatant misstatement of fact (or violation of law), is unwarranted. First, let us bring the use into context. The author is introduced as “a member of our expert community” and not merely an expert. Of course you may argue, it is implied; which brings me to my second point. Second, in context, the word ‘expert’ and it’s use here is ambiguous. It is never specified what type of expert the author is. Third, the word expert is defined as, “a person who has comprehensive and authoritative (able to be trusted as being accurate and true) knowledge of or skill in a particular area. Looking at Mr. Bickley’s portfolio, I would say he has comprehensive knowledge of and/or skill in photography which could be trusted; therefore, qualifying him as an expert. I could probably even safely assume he probably even possesses knowledge of and/or skill on what works best for running his business.

Therefore, before making assertions such as, “that is a blatant misstatement of fact (or violation of law), consider ALL the evidence first. As such statements could potentially be construed as a false spoken statement damaging to the site’s reputation.
Andrew

Dear Markman,

You can’t possibly be for real. Far too many fakes on MM. You’re one of them.
http://twitter.com/TreatandThreads Treatsandthreads.com

I like what you are saying here but I understand how he is trying to break down the business for people to understand. He is trying to relate things to the average person. LOL I learned to stop doing such unless I am getting paid to relay such info.
I run a small business and know if I worried about hourly that I would go insane. You look at overall expense sheet and profit margins end of year. You tweek what you can from year to year and trim what is wasteful.
Its great to see intelligent conversations regardless
Ajscalzitti

Well its great that you never figured out the cost of doing business but that is no reason the rest of us should not. I am not saying the article is perfect, but knowing how much you spend to produce is part of running your own business. Otherwise how can you be profitable, just flying by the seat of your pants is not a plan

James

you know time costs you nothing and really isnt that valuble as your trying to make it. In your concepts, as a customer I would outsource all of these duties and only pay you for the product you produce; because you have forced me the customer into that position. I wouldnt care how much time I spent outsourcing you because it would still save me money and my time costs me nothing.

I just had a situation with a atist I hired to draw a picture. I didnt like it, didnt buy it, and she tried to invoice me a bill for the time she spent. It was a unproffesional drawing and she wanted to charge me by the hour for it. Why would I buy a drawing by the hour? Artists should sell their products and not their “time spent”.

Bubba

I really agree with Markman in his comments. The time for money case really made my stomach churn. The real reason I think has nothing to do with time. Images are valuble and all photographers are not equal. The editing, setting up a shot location, and time behind a camera anyone can do and everyone shouldnt be charging professionals fees for. What a photographer gets paid so well for is his skill, talent, and ability to capture a image.

Transoptic

What you fail to realize is that given ALL variables in shooting fees (equipment, expenses, talent, vision, experience, etc) the ONE constant from photographer to photographer is TIME. However, one pro photographer may be faster and more efficient than another. Even though that equals less time, wouldn’t you agree that’s a valuable asset to charge for?? If one photographer can edit your shoot and deliver photos in half the time as another, which would you consider shooting with?

Where Markman’s scenario breaks down is, personally I’d rather pay an attorney MORE for having the skill to settle pre-trial than for dragging a case out in court, which requires way too much of my time, nevermind stress management.

Leosimages

Markman,
I know a little about the law; including the tremendous amount of time one spends in school and the cost of that schooling; which, in part “justifies” the fee you, et al charge. However, I wouldn’t insult you, et al by getting into a discussion with a group of attorneys about why they charge what they do-as I am not an attorney.

Now you may own a camera; but keep in mind; Owning one and using in now and then does not a photographer make. Same goes for a hammer and carpenter.

What I didn’t see argued here (which you can relate to) is the schooling/training a REAL photographer goes through/pays for before reaching a level where he is recognized as a Professional.

Personally, I began my training in junior high, through Art school- internships, countless hours of “self school,” assisting many skilled professionals, seminars, work groups,professional classes, etc.

I had to pay and and “pay” for all of that-just like one pays for medical or law school.

Furthermore, the article was a break-down of WHY he chargers what he does, not a random statement.

And, as one who knows a little about law, I can say this, what a professional artist/photographer does to prep for a shoot-does during and post session is more work then what an attorney does (on average).

About 70% of the legal cases handled by attorneys I know, are “the same old thing,” only the names are different. After the initial consultation, their staff does most of the work, the attorney talks to the client/plaintiff/defendant on the phone a few times, signs a few forms, and once in blue moon, actually gets off their ass and goes to court. And for this, they/you charge ridicules fees….Why?

How do you justify your fees? How do you sleep at night?

I know when it comes to criminal cases, “you” charge what you do because your client will do anything/spend any amount to stay out of jail, and “you” take advantage of that.

Professional Artist/Photographers don’t take advantage of models/actors, we give them a quality product/Art-with a style they can’t get elsewhere-which they will use to get paid employment (sort of like going to school to get educated/training so they can use that to get paid employment).

So one way models should look at justifying the cost of a quality photographer is to see those shots as their “diploma.”

In closing, if you “don’t stop to figure out how many hours I put into the case” and or, more importantly, your bills, I wouldn’t run around town bragging about that-it makes you sound like a guy who has no idea how to run a business.

And you’ve certainly proven you have no idea how to work in the photography field.
Markman’s an idiot

@ Markman I read your replay again and I really can’t believe how stupid you are. You are a moron. Don’t have any kids; you’re stupid. REALLY STUPID! You know nothing about anything that has anything to do with anything written in the original article. You especially know nothing about tax law. Grab your mom and the both of you, play in traffic.

mumeena

Yes, I totally agree…
People don’t understand. Not everyone who has a camera can claim they are photographers.
Greg Cobb

I like a lot of this. Some of it is generalizing but I think we still get the picture. Philipe also makes some good points.
http://www.SinghStyleStudio.com Surinder Singh

It’s not the question of just time, as the photographer spend tripple amount of time ( pre-production, shooting & post-production) compare to other professionals as Models, Make-Up Artists, Stylists and to care about two sets of equipments say ( 1. Photographic Equipments – Cameras & Lights and 2. IT Equipments – Computers & Software ) which both are far expensive as compare to equipment used by other professionals in the same field.

Above all Photography is Art which depends on eye behind the camera.

An Artist is not paid for his labor but for his vission.
- James Wistler
http://starforeman.com Star

sometimes I wish people would just understand that there is a real cost of living, that there is retirement, health insurance, student loans. Is my roughly 15,000 hours of experience really worth less than the cost of maintaining my own studio?

And if we mention equipment, I own one lens and one body. I have amazing gallery 27×40 images, one of which is in a museum, that were shot with a rebel xti and the kit lens. I am happy now to have a 5d mkI and a tamron lens. Makes me feel all fancy.
Hank

The real answer to “Why do professional photographers charge so much?” is: Because that’s what other people will pay us to shoot, and if you can’t pay us enough that we feel the job is “worth it”, then we don’t want to shoot for you.

The fuzzy part is “worth it”. If I’m in the middle of a busy streak, I’ll charge more, if I’m slow or bored I’ll take a lower paying gig, but only if I won’t feel like I was taken advantage of.

Of course you have to pay your bills and then some, but I can usually survive the year after my first few months of jobs. Everything else is for profit, and at that point, I simply charge at least what I need to make the job feel like it was worth it. I don’t want to do any job that I can’t smile through, regardless of how much work or how many hours it takes.

Good photographers who are also good businessmen should be getting compensated well for their time. If a new client wants us to work for them, they are probably going to have to pay us enough to dedicate some of our market-determined valuable time to them.

There’s nothing more valuable in life than our time, and I want to spend it doing things I enjoy. And I feel comfortable charging high prices to work, because I am confident that I can get it, if not from this client, then from the next.

You can break down the job’s pay into hours of work, but I have developed a subjective sense of the amount of effort a job will require, and with that, a feeling that my compensation is adequate.

In the end, I guess maybe the real answer to the question of why we charge so much is not because of hours spent or equipment bought, but simply because we can. Maybe that makes us a$$holes, but it also means that I can live comfortably on 80 working days a year.
Insideyourhead

Let’s for a moment ignore everything that Mr. Lawyer here wrote, clearly he just wanted us to know how much money he makes.
If photographers made that much on a shoot I bet we wouldn’t care how much what costs and what gear we buy.
On the other hand I have never had a fixed price on what I shoot…it all depended on a person I was shooting and what I got out of it. Let me explain…A model comes to me and wants a portfolio, I look at her, I like what I see and I know she has a great potential and that agencies will love her (I make a quick test shot and send it to my friend who is a scout and she tells me if agencies would be interested). So I sit down with her and get to know her…build a bond, if you like, and sort of become friends. Most likely I do her shoot for free but we stay friends afterwards.
This in turn brings me whole a lot more business because she will recommend me to all her friends who think are also going to be models, yet have no hope in hell, to shoot their portfolios. this is where I make money.
Also this friendship last after she makes it in the fashion world and your name gets around. Doing things like this is as much of an investment as buying a new camera or lights or a computer. It also introduces you to people from the industry and potential clients.
So my advice is, play it by ear and look for an opportunity in everything (and I don’t mean of sexual kind cause that’s just wrong…here is enough perverts out there posing as photographers to get laid)
This is a bit of an old principal…you scratch my back and I will scratch yours.

Markman

I’m sorry. Do you, somehow, think you have ANY clue what my income is -from two hypothetical examples I used in my post? I used the numbers that I used because they were easily divisible by 3 (i.e. “one third”) – not, in any fashion, to share with YOU or anyone else what my income is.

The fact that you and the author seem to be overlooking is that, in the arts, value has little to do with fixed overhead.

Let me offer a different example:

-Two painters, each with a $1000/month studio, who each spend $500/month on canvases and paints are sitting down to decide how much to charge for portrait work.

The first guy, Joseph Schmoe, decides that –because of the number of paintings he can produce in a given month and given his fixed overhead– he needs to charge $3,000 for the portrait.

The second guy, whose name is Pablo Picasso, turns to Joe Schmoe and says: “That’s cool but if it’s alright with you, I think I’ll charge $2.3 million for my portraits.”

Other than that, your post really seems to agree with mine more than the author’s.

Fees for services for self-employed people, are generally based on far more than the individual person’s overhead costs. There are MANY, MANY factors that go into setting fees. Attempting to break your fee down to an “hourly” compensation package is, contrary to the point made in this article, a silly way to set rates.

The reason that David LaChapelle gets paid more than I, for his photos, has very VERY little to do with a calculation of hourly rates and even less to do with our respective overhead costs.

Transoptic

What you’re failing to realize is that this is essentially an article to break down basic CODB considerations from a photographer’s perspective.

Your DEMAND as a photographer, or painter, or sculptor, is what justifies raising your MARKUP, but you first have to consider overhead. In your Picasso example, his fame and stature as an artist doesn’t negate the fact that of that $2.3M portrait, he still pays $500 in materials. If he can’t even cover that, how will he become the Picasso he so desires to one day be?

The main point of this article was to show it’s not about how GOOD or FAMOUS you are, but about basic costs, because most people reading this article need to understand the fundamentals first. The author didn’t overlook it, he just didn’t mention it, because it’s just not the point.

Musings

Thanks for this. I am going to re-read this and quote it when someone asks. Usually they are slow paying though. That’s my main problem and I just DON’T charge enough.
Timbeckett

There seems to be a lot of criticism for this article, however in life it’s far to easy to complain.

I think it is a useful feature, but perhaps not for the purposes that it was intended, for someone new to photography or looking to quit their day job in order to follow a full time career in the business it gives some useful reminders as to the costs involved.

My day job is in Investment banking, and I can assure you that when you work out my hourly rate it has nothing to do with the cost of my Armani suit or expense of the car to work You charge what you do because people are prepared to pay for it. My value is based on demand for my skills, experience, education, communication ability, likability etc etc. The same is true of my photography, if people like it more than the competition they’ll pay more and if not they wont.

But as pointed out below the details above basically help someone looking to make the switch work out how much profit they will make.

I think what it does tell the model is that if you choose someone who’s chosen to mortgage their house in order to secure the mountain of gadgets and high end location think carefully. They’ll at least be charging to cover these costs and is the quality of their photos really worth it…..

I’m going to end my discussion with a story of working with one of the most talented photographers I’ve ever met, Luis Rafael. It took place at a time when I was still relatively new to photography, having been shooting for less than a year. I arrived with my 3 assistants, mountain of lighting equipment all packaged in my black label luggage and stored on a ‘tour bus’ I’d hired. Luis arrived with an old Mark II and a single lense that was not behaving itself. We shot all day and at the end we looked at the photos, it is a humbling experience but let me tell you his were the more valuable…. it really has nothing to do with the overheads but the skill involved.
Sfglamgirls

This article does a good job of pointing out that there are quite a few more considerations for a photographer to contend with than simply the hours of actual shoot time, many of which some models may be unaware of.

However, it does a shockingly poor job of explaining exactly how expensive a shoot can be for a photographer, and how much overhead a photographer must account for in his/her fee. It speaks of a shoot and the work it entails only in terms of time spent, without speaking of actual expense of running a business, and puts forth a frankly disastrous business model for a self-employed photographer. Pricing on time alone is an extremely dangerous pricing model because it fails to take into account your real overhead (i.e. equipment costs, rentals, location/studio fees, hiring staff, insurance, etc). If you shoot 15 hours a week, 52 weeks a year (an unlikely scenario), at $100/hr you’d gross $78000 pre-tax. Now, let’s say you own your own studio. Depending where you live, rent on that alone can be $500 a month or $3000 a month — or higher. So right away you’ve cut earning down from $78000 to somewhere between $42000 and $72000. Then there is photographic equipment. Even the most basic equipment setup — one body, 3 high quality lenses, studio lights and stands — would cost a minimum of $6000-$7000. Most pro photographers have closer to $20,000 worth of equipment. They don’t replace it all yearly, but even on a 3 year depreciation schedule, you’re looking at anywhere between $2000 and $7000 a year in photographic equipment costs. And that doesn’t even take into account computers and software, which could easily add another $1000-$3000 per year to the depreciation schedule. So now, after overhead, that $78000 a year has been chipped away to between $32000 and $69000. That’s a HUGE variance to be charging a fee based on time alone. In this scenario, the photographer with the more expensive setup isn’t bringing in enough money or business at $100/hr to actually make a living in a major U.S. metropolitan area. And we still haven’t gotten to paying for MUAs, wardrobe, studio assistants, health insurance for self-employed, equipment insurance, taxes and various other expenses in running a photographic studio.

One can easily see from this example that even at $100/hr, many photographers would simply be undercharging and pricing themselves out of any reasonable profit. Worse yet, they bring down the perceived value of professional photographic services for ALL photographers, making it harder for professional photographers to price their services at a rate that reflects their true expenses and allows them to make a real living.

The better model would be to account for ALL expenses in running one’s business (be it large or small), including a modest base salary and divide that by the number of shoots per year one shoots on average. This would be one’s base fee for a shoot. To this a subjective “creative fee” can be added, to account for what you feel is your particular vision/talent/uniqueness etc. In this way, you account for all expenses, salaries, etc. and are also charging for your unique artistic vision.

This is obviously a problematic formula for a person just starting a business, because you don’t have previous business from which to arrive at an average number of shoots per year, and you haven’t established yourself enough to be able to claim much for your artistic talents. In this case, you set the numbers where you reasonably want them, and build your business slowly to meet those goals. Most likely, this means operating at a loss the first two or three years, but most businesses operate at a loss at the beginning anyway. In the long run, you’ll be a better photographer due to your hard work, and you’ll make more profits in the long run because you’ve taken account of your real expenses.

http://www.facebook.com/davidbickley David Bickley

While I agree completely I opted to omit those factors due to the wide range of expenses. The costs of equipment rental, studio rental, wages for assistants, etc… will fluctuate to a massive degree based on location alone (even within the same city). Bottom line being that when a client (the intended audience) who may or may not know/care about your overhead wants to know why the rate is higher than they would expect…the easiest breakdown is based on time. It is that way because it is the most commonly misunderstood aspect of our career.

The average person doesn’t know that we don’t just press the shutter a few times and go home to bathe in money.

GW

If you have to explain why you charge so much you probably arent worth what you are charging in the first place….just sayin!
UrbanDecayChris

BEST ADVICE, AVOID IDIOT MODELS WHO NITPICK YOUR RATE. ONE OF TWO THINGS WILL LIKELY OCCUR
A:THEY WILL WASTE YOUR TIME AND NOT BOOK
OR
B:THEY WILL BOOK AND BE AN UTTER NIGHTMARE.

http://twitter.com/TreatandThreads Treatsandthreads.com

I agree

Clyph

[quote=Markman]
The bottom line: any day I can put money into the bank is a good day. If you want to analyze each individual fee – you’ll reach no logical conclusion nor establish any beneficial formula for which cases to take and which cases not to take. The goal is to put money in the bank. If I wanted to figure out how much money I make per hour, I wouldn’t be self-employed. I’d get a job that pays an hourly salary.
[/quote]
Clyph

Crap… mangled that.

Anyway, in response to Markman, that kind of accounting practice is why so many small businesses and freelancers fail and go bankrupt.

While it’s true that putting money in the bank is the goal, you’re much more successful at that goal if you know how much time you spend getting work versus doing work, and what your return on investment for different kind of jobs is.

I’ve been an independent software consultant for years. I used to run my business like Markman: jsut taking whatever jobs I could find and banking the results. Once I started tracking my time and effort, I learned what jobs to take and what jobs to turn down. The result: 50% increase to my bottom line and nearly a 100% increase in my effective hourly rate. It’s also a huge boon to your negotiating and estimating strategy if you know your costs. The key to success is to work smarter, not harder.
Business_of_Photography

First off I didn’t read all comments here so … in case the points have been made this is my disclaimer. Tree key points to make here (and I just scanned over the main article).

1.- One of the biggest problems professional photographers have is costing out their
work and charging appropriately. Photographers tend to undercharge and in a
community of “cheapos” like MM it’s an augmented effect. I’ve heard the rational
behind charging / costing breakdowns from many very successful photographers,
the key point is Yes, just like any business you need to break down all the charges
and understand what your costs are and where is your profit margin before you
bid on a project or give a quote to a customer. So from that view point David
(author here) is correct and most people in MM should pay attention. This is
the fundamental reason why photography is underpaid, because it’s not quoted
appropriately. Think about this: A model on MM wants to charge $50 – $100/hr
a MUAH wants to charge about $50/hr + Kit and travel. Yet the photographer is
expected to do a shoot for free or for $125 – $150. Pay for the studio, bring all
the equipment for the 3 – 4 hr shoot and then spend twice as much time on post.
So David’s assessment and costing breakdown is what I would consider the barely
minimum unless you’re an amateur or a fool …. which brings us to point 2

2.- Mark’s idea of any money is good money. Yes, valid point from the perspective of
anything > $0 is better than nothing. Yet, we are not taking a 33% of a production
fee. Also , our customers are not well educated about the cost of photography and
did I already say “cheap”. So , if you operate out of desperation and agree to make
some money vs fair or good money. What you do is reduce the value of
photography. I assume that was a key point that motivated the article. Now, on
the other side. This business runs on word or mouth, referrals, and networking. So
I may agree ( as a marketing strategy) to lower my rates or do an UnPaid TEST for
a potential client. But clearly stating this is the way into a partnership and reoccuring
fairly paid work. I’ve read and been told by true professionals (people shooting
for top campaigns, editorials, commercial work we would all recognize) that it’s
more difficult, yet more valuable to understand and learn to say ” NO ” to a
customer and pass up even a fairly paid job … that to just take anything that comes

3.- Final point, address to the brief scan I did on Phillipe’s comment. Very valid point,
yet not applicable to all. You can not limit your rate schedule to a breakdown of
time, materials, number of prints , number and time of assistants, etc. This
strategy works for the working photographer. I mean the family, wedding, seniors,
model port, product photographer …. The guy that works for himself but is still
trading time for money, looking for an up-sell on the prints, wedding book, or
extra look … For someone who has transcended that stage or taken the hard road
to developing a style at the cost of a wider audience … then yes Phillipe is absolutely
right. You are selling yourself. You are selling your stile, weather it takes 5 minutes
to nail the shot, or 5 hrs it’s secondary …. the end result is a recognizable identifiable
“Look” the client is paying for. Or it’s a name … Why does Mario Testino get paid
$100,000 to do a personal portrait … because it’s the name, the style , the Brand.
As I said this doesn’t apply to all …

The conclusion is that weather it’s by the numbers and the business formula, or by a “rough estimate” of quoting and costing, of by Style / Brand based charge … even if many consider it to be overcharged. All photographers, should value their hard work and not under-price it and give it away for free. Those who do it, are harming us all
and the killing the Professional photographer. Making photography the low end of
the list of talents on a call sheet because any weekend amateur that can afford a good
enough camera that will do the hard work on Program mode will sell away a $1200 job for a tenth of the value …

This is all written within the limit of the MM community which is really not a professional photographers community. So more important than price per 5×7 prints, is addressing licensing fees . A real professional photographer has an agent , that agent has a staff that costs out all the details David talked about in relation and scale to the project, really basics of time and materials, but then negotiates the usage fees which is where the real money is. That is the equivalent of David’s cost per print.
Joe Plummer

They have to charge a lot because photo equipment is extremely expensive!

Hank

If that was the reason, then I would have been shooting for free since years ago, as all of my equipment is now paid for.

Hannah

I think you did a good job opening people’s eyes to the concept of how much work goes into a photography shoot, but the prices/ expenses you added are not accurate for the common shoot.

I don’t know anyone who goes out and shoots for 8 hours a day unless they are shooting a clothes catalog in rapid succession or a wedding.

Basic portrait shoots last around 1-2 hours, fashion up to 4.

Most clients will provide their own hair/ makeup and looks.

All you need to do is have the right location and equipment.

I know many photographers (I don’t know if you can call them photographers) who will just show up with a camera, no assistant, and no lighting equipment and take photos on location. Then they go home and retouch for a couple hours. Nothing fancy, just straight up profit.

I know other photographers who will put in so much work into the planning and lighting and equipment and makeup, but they will make the same amount as the person who just brought his camera, took some photos, and Photoshopped the heck out of them.

The money is all about the rep. If you look highly professional and have a good list of clients/ demand, you can start upping the prices. When you first start out, you will probably work for free or pretty close to it.
http://www.rbanks77.webs.com Jewellsphotography

I agree totally u hit it right on the nail…
Covermephotography

This should be on the walls of studios with a chairs facing it.

Covermephotography

“With chairs facing it not a chairs…” Apparently I’m too tired from editing. lol

Shotbybarry

Well done David!
Dave G.

Talking about the basic costs of doing business seems entirely appropriate for this.

Granted the reason some photographers can command large day rate/creative/photography fees has more to do with style and reputation but the basic expenses and time involved are perfectly fine rudimentary places to start.
Dd

The basics of economics is price is set by supply and demand, not your costs. If it costs you $1,000 to do a shoot and nobody is willing to pay you enough to make a profit, you go out of business.

Lots of entities are willing to do it cheaper…e.g. Glamour Studios and stock photos. The only way to keep your prices high is to give the cutomer what they demand.
Josh

I charge less for headshots (no, it doesn’t cover my gear, but..) , because as an actor I know headshots are like hair cuts. Not to say my clients are getting any less bang for their buck. I’m still a pro.
Josh

Whoa, $8000 for camera. mandatory, for commercial?, yeah if your using a Hassleblad. A Canon 5D Mark II is easily $2,000, and can fill a bill board. Do your homework, author. (Imported Camera’s are expensive, yes.)

Rob

He is most likely using a 1Ds mark 3, Those ran pretty close to that much before the Canon 1Dx came out.

http://www.facebook.com/davidbickley David Bickley

Right on the money

Photographer

I wish I could offer a solution to this question but all I have is another opinion.

Photographers should be no different from any other profession in terms of fees based on experience, knowledge and equipment. We must all value our work. As much as we may believe in our abilities, knowledge, creativity and equipment however, like it or not, we are often bound by client perception in terms of the service we provide and the value placed on that service according to their budgets. Indeed, I’ve seen front cover images on some very well known magazines that made me wonder, what happened here?

Simply put, some clients understand what one photographer brings to the table compared to another and some clients do not. Unfortunately, this holds especially true of any profession that involves creativity. The fees charged by many other professionals are seldom questioned the way the fee of a photographer is; in most cases the fee is just paid. Try negotiating with your doctor or dentist….or even your neighborhood butcher and see what happens. “I know you’re good doc….I can tell by how many sick people are waiting to see you, but do you think instead of charging me your regular rate, you can do it for half off? I’ll only be with you for five minutes; a quick check up and I’m out of here. What do you say?”.

While it may sound silly, it’s true. However, because the market has become flooded with relatively inexpensive digital camera equipment that can manage fairly nice images even in the hands of a novice, the perception of the masses has shifted dramatically in terms of what they think is a “fair price” for what they need done. In addition, our culture in general has become conditioned to accept lower quality and consequently, lower prices regarding everything we buy; we almost expect it to require replacement in a short period of time. Unfortunately, when the client looks at the results of the “cheap” photographer, they are disappointed. By then it’s too late and it doesn’t necessarily mean the client will pay a higher price next time. In fact, they may expect an even lower price thinking the results from photographer B are not going to be much better than the results from photographer A.

What to do? Well, hang in there and believe in your work. If you don’t, who will? There are still a lot of clients out there who know the difference. Best Wishes to all.
SheenaRose92

I think this article did a really good job in pointing out why they should get paid. But models don’t just show up at the shoot and take pictures and they’re done. They are also working hours on getting ready for the shoot.
Panoman

Hey Markman, I laughed myself off of my chair and was rolling on the floor reading your comments.

Quoting your first statement “I’ll be honest: I tried giving this article a fair chance.” YOU DID NOT. You are comparing yourself making $33k for doing hardly any work and $25k for doing “hundreds of hours” and after each of these you state “I take the money, put it in the bank and move on the next case” To a photographer charging $100 per hour.

How many of these $25k and $33k jobs do you take on in a year? 10? More? And how many are multi $100k that you “put it in the bank” that you don’t use in your example?
I heard of a photographer talking to a lawyer about the lawyer’s daughter’s wedding. Mr. lawyer man asked Mr. photographer how come he charges so much. Mr. photographer takes Mr. lawyer to the window, points to a BMW in the lot and says “See that car?” Mr. lawyer says “Yes, that’s mine.” Mr. photographer says “One day, I would like to own one.”

The point of the article is that $100 per hour sounds like a lot, but, it isn’t when you consider the real expenses. If, like you, you can make $33k for one hour of work(?), no, you don’t have to analyze a budget. You just get into your BMW, or your Audi, or your Lexus, or your Hummer (you own all four because you mood changes) and drive burning up $4.00 a gallon gas just BECAUSE. The photographer drives his only car, a used KIA with over 100,000 miles, and plans out his trips to minimise the miles he drives because at $100 per hour (sounds like a lot), he barely makes ends meet, has no health insurance, teeth that are falling out because he can’t afford to go to a dentist. But, he charges $100 per hour, that’s so much money.

Do not hire Markman as your liar, I mean lawyer. It is my experience that anyone who says, “I’ll be honest” he is lying somewhere. Was he lying to you before he said he would be honest, or after. “I’ll be honest” were the very first words. I leave it to you to draw your own conclusion about “Honest” Markman.
http://www.facebook.com/jerry.davis Jerry J. Davis

There are many photographers out there with many different backgrounds. Some are overpriced and some who are talented enough to charge big bucks give their time away for next to nothing. Models should look at portfolios and see if the photographs match what they want for their look and their career, and then choose accordingly.
Turnerphotography

When considering fees, let’s not forget the end use of the photograph(s). When I shoot a comp-card for a model, that model’s agency will use those photos to show talent scouts and other photographers the model’s looks and abilities, hopefully resulting in garnering revenue. When I shoot a wedding, the couple will place images in an album or in frames to preserve the memories of their event for (ideally) a lifetime. When I shoot images for a restaurant’s website, the client’s intent for the images is to entice the viewers to visit their venue. When I shoot a bike on a beach for an ad to be placed in magazines with a circulation of tens of thousands of viewers and billboards with tens of thousands of viewers, the client hopes the ad and image will result in generating considerable revenue. The long and the short of it is that people who hire photographers do so because they believe the end product will result in either sentimental or monetary value; thus, the talent of the photographer as well as the value the client places on the image(s) contribute to the fee the shooter sets.

I think Mr. Bickley’s article does a good job in illustrating a basic break-down of how a new shooter should begin to approach pricing out shoots. But as that shooter becomes more advanced and gathers a larger and more professional client base, he needs to factor in what he will contribute to the value the client hopes to reap.
http://bbcmodels.blogspot.com/ ralanscott Mayhem #2125874

Excellent article

Really clarifies things
RWA-real world advise

Simply put….millions upon millions of people own cameras (and cameras sophisticatedly designed to take the best photos with the least amount of technical expertise). Yet only a very small handful of people can consistently take high quality, visually encapsulating photographs. That should tell you something!!!

If you want a more in depth view on this matter continue reading….

I didn’t read every post, but I think it’s really funny how no one mentions usage. That is probably the biggest determinant of price in many cases. That’s why someone shooting a catalog that is going out to 100,000 people and is directly responsible for pulling in revenue is making way more money than someone shooting little Johnny’s birthday party.

Has anyone ever heard of advertising rates?…or Fotoquote for that matter? Not that it is the bible or anything but nowhere in that program is there a determining factor of time to decide price. Each photographer has a different working method and it’s is up to the photog to figure out how much time it will take to capture that image and what his/her time is worth. It may take someone 5 minutes to snap an image that no one will ever identically capture again, hence adding even more value to it. If you can capture that one of a kind, impactful image, it doesn’t matter how long it took, the value is the same as if it took 4 days. Your technical ability may allow you to judge and set-up the necessary factors to take a shot in minutes that someone else may just be waiting for days for the right scenario of factors to come together.

That is where expenses come in….& yes, expenses/overhead absolutely matters. Have none of you ever seen or produced a commercial invoice? I just watched Dan Salinger speak about how he turns a $500 editorial day rate into $10,000 to cover the costs of his camera, rentals, assistants, insurance, electric bills, etc and have a few dollars for his pocket. We have to pay for the $8000 camera somehow. Plus have a few bucks left over to spend on (amongst other things) insurance, computers, programs, and MARKETING!!

You may decide (get lucky) to hire a photographer that does an astounding job with very little expenses but that is only because he/she either got very lucky or they have a specific, honed talent and style that allows him/her to do so, which usually takes years of practice and tons of technical expertise. Either way, that person is a bit of an anomaly themselves and most photographers who produce high quality images need high quality equipment, resources, and talent around them. And they need to promote these talents to the right people, which costs A LOT of money!!!

That’s why you models pay what you pay. If you want good promotion/marketing, you pay for good photographers. That’s why companies spend millions on advertising campaigns…it keeps them successful no matter how bad their products are. Shit, the Prius killed a bunch of people and it still is a highly sought after car. McDonald’s makes people obese and very ill yet they still have billions of dollars in sales every year. Why?…expensive advertising & branding.

Many of the models on this site need all the help they can get, so paying for quality photography that actually makes you look pretty…or at least kinda pretty… is much more valuable to you then some creep in their mom’s basement with a crappy camera and little understanding of how to use it, or how to light subjects, or what clothing is the most flattering and stylish…and you end up looking like a plump piece of trash with poorly done make-up, bad clothes and mom and dad’s rusty washing machine peeking out in the background…and the only place you can use that photo is on your model mayhem port and the only work it gets you is other creeps asking if you will get naked for tfcd.

If you have eyes, a half ounce of common sense, and drip of aesthetic you should be able to decipher for yourself why photogs charge what they charge? Granted, there are some very talented photogs and models on this site, there is a TON of absolute crap!!!! Look around this site for a while and then look at a few agency represented photographers and tell me who deserves more money…models do the same. If you can’t figure it out, I strongly suggest ending your modeling or photography “career” now!!!!

Remember…you are only as good as your worst photograph!

AND YES, THERE IS A TON OF WORK WE DO BEHIND THE SCENES (SCOUTING, EDITING, CASTING, FINDING TALENTED STYLIST, SHOPPING CLOTHES/PROPS, CONCEPTUALIZING, EDITING AND RETOUCHING, RESEARCHING AND STAYING UP TO DATE ON NEW EQUIPMENT AND TECHNIQUES, CREATING MARKETING MATERIALS, CHASING CLIENTS, CHASING CHECKS, BOOK KEEPING AND ACCOUNTING, INVOICING, PUTTING TOGETHER QUOTES, MAKING PDF’s AND WEB GALLERIES FOR CLIENTS, TRACKING DOWN PEOPLE WHO STEAL YOUR IMAGES, ETC ETC ETC ETC), THAT DOESN’T GET ACCOUNTED FOR BY MODELS WHO DON’T UNDERSTAND THIS.
DiscustedPro

Everyone thinks they can get someone to do it for free.
Pro cameras and Prosumer equipment should only be sold to someone with a college degree in that field. A professional.
IM JUST SAYING -.-

Can I just say…… anyone who spends more than an hour on a basic image is an idiot?
Agent

You get what you pay for.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Estella-Heuslein-Photography/100002551444863 Estella Heuslein-Photography

Oh and until I got on MM. I had never heard a model complain about that. For a short time I worked as a photographer and makeup artist at a talent agency. Makes perfect sense to me.