John Jebbia wrote:
Is anyone watching this special on CNN right now? Very interesting.

No, I don't get CNN, what is it about?

John Jebbia wrote:
Is anyone watching this special on CNN right now? Very interesting.

what''s it about...

John Jebbia wrote:
Here's a better link to info:

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/

The program replays at 11:00 EST. Definitely worth watching.

You have really bummed me out...$8 a gallon, I definately need to get some cold weather if I'm gonna be riding my R1 in the winter...

Jay Dezelic wrote:
It amazes me how in 2006 we are still so reliant on foreign oil to power our economy.  Cheap, efficient, and clean alternative energy sources have been around for decades.  Yet most Americans could care less.  The rest of the world views America as the epidemy of opulent materialistic greed. 

WTF.  Why must so many people drive those gigantic school buses called SUVs? Why does everyone want to live in a 6000 sf McMansion?  Why is every kid over inundated with thousands of big plastic toys made by slave children working 18 hour shifts in third world counties?

The other day my mom bought a cute little antique alcohol stove from a street vendor in Paris.  She brought it over to my house (it needed a little soldering and a valve seal to fix some leaks). I poured a little alcohol in it, and Vue La! It put out an incredible amount of heat for several hours on less than a 1/4 pint of fuel.  I could have made the alcohol myself from scrap food with an old-fashion whisky still.

Ethanol (alcohol) is an abundant fuel source that can easily be produced from many crops grown in the US.  It burns clean, it's renewable, and it's domestically made.  You can burn pure ethanol in most gasoline engines with only a small adjustment to the fuel jets.

Just think, if half of the $200 billion in war money was spent on developing the ethanol industry, we would have obsoleted the need for foreign oil.  And the so-called evil dictators would have not been able to amass the money to finance their armies to begin with.

Don't even get me going on heat pumps, fuel cells, and solar energy because there is really no reason for homes to even be on an energy grid since certain discoveries were made in the 70's.

So, encourage your friends to become informed about alternate energy sources.  Buy products from companies supporting sustainable and energy efficient production practices. Invest in alternative energy stocks.  And vote for politicians that truly support development of alternative energy

Ok. I am done with the wine.  Can I have some cheese?

I think the biggest hurdle is getting the infrastructure in place to actually do it. The fuel stations would all have to convert. People would need to buy the vehicles. It would have to be a phase in process..

John Jebbia wrote:
I think the biggest hurdle is getting the infrastructure in place to actually do it. The fuel stations would all have to convert. People would need to buy the vehicles. It would have to be a phase in process..

Infrastructure?  Ethanol burns nearly the same as gasoline. My understanding is that no new equipment is required, just an adjustment to the fuel system.  There are farms that already produce their own fuel for running tractors and other vehicles. 

As far as distribution and customer delivery at the pumps, it's the same as gasoline. - No need to change anything.  There are already some gas stations serving ethanol blends. And it's a lot cleaner burning.

Fuel cell technology for cars? I agree. There are major infrastructure changes needed for that. - But not ethanol.

1 acre of sugar cane produces about 1,200 gallons of ethanol every 18 months.  The only infrastructure needed is distilleries - which are a hell of a lot more simple to build than refineries.  You can build one in your back yard if you want - just like so many people did during prohibition.

Jay Dezelic wrote:

John Jebbia wrote:
The only infrastructure needed is distilleries - which are a hell of a lot more simple to build than refineries.  You can build one in your back yard if you want - just like so many people did during prohibition.

That's why!  The government and corporations want to be able control it for maximum profits.  It's still smarting from the internet!

John Jebbia wrote:
Jay, do you know of any companies that are currently developing the technology? If you have their ticker symbols please post them. I have $3000 cash sitting in my Ameritrade account and I might be interested in investing in such a company.

There are actually a large number of recent ethanol producers that have started up . Lots of related technologies companies too. I don't remember the names. You would have to do an Internet search.  I remember seeing one highlighted on our local news in Seattle.

The common terms to search under are "biofuels" and "biodiesel".  Do your research!!!  Any company is only as good as the management team behind it.  Study their 10K and get educated on the business before you invest.  There are a number of states that have legislation in place or mandating the use of biodiesel in state vehicles.

It seems like a great time to get into the alternative energy business.  The oil business is taking its last great stab at securing future profitability.  This is why I think the current administration is trying to push alternative energy research into fuel cell technology because it will give the oil business a longer future than if Washington pushed heavy on ethanol production - but individual states have more immediate needs to meet air pollution requirements. - Remember where a big portion of the federal tax base comes from.

Sara Green wrote:
eh too familiar with the oil & gas biz and lived in too many of those places docted (natural gas is the next) ... I'm finding CBS much more amusing, but then most of the people they're interviewing worked at the last place I did! Back when I traded my brain for modeling

I don't know much about much about the natural gas business or how much reserves there are left under the ground.  It's a clean burning fuel, but because its gas, it seems that it is a more difficult problem to solve as far as infrastructure for fueling private cars and trucks. - Unless you are talking about gas-fired electrical plants and hybrid vehicles.

Jay Dezelic wrote:

There are actually a large number of recent ethanol producers that have started up . Lots of related technologies companies too. I don't remember the names. You would have to do an Internet search.  I remember seeing one highlighted on our local news in Seattle.

The common terms to search under are "biofuels" and "biodiesel".  Do your research!!!  Any company is only as good as the management team behind it.  Study their 10K and get educated on the business before you invest.  There are a number of states that have legislation in place or mandating the use of biodiesel in state vehicles.

It seems like a great time to get into the alternative energy business.  The oil business is taking its last great stab at securing future profitability.  This is why I think the current administration is trying to push alternative energy research into fuel cell technology because it will give the oil business a longer future than if Washington pushed heavy on ethanol production - but individual states have more immediate needs to meet air pollution requirements. - Remember where a big portion of the federal tax base comes from.

I think the big stopper on ethonal and biodiesel is the cost to manufacture. It is still cheaper to buy petrol based fuels.

Mike Cummings wrote:

I think the big stopper on ethonal and biodiesel is the cost to manufacture. It is still cheaper to buy petrol based fuels.

I am not sure where the price threshold is, but I think it's around $3.80 per gallon right now in the state of Washington.  With improved manufacturing, higher production volumes, and competition, the price should be just north of $3.50 gal (I think).  Petroleum prices will continue to rise due to supply problems.

Jay Dezelic wrote:
...Don't even get me going on heat pumps, fuel cells, and solar energy because there is really no reason for homes to even be on an energy grid since certain discoveries were made in the 70's.

Jay, we (the conscious engineers) are working on it...we are getting close.  At UW, we just developed a way to accurately measure fuel cell reactions and should help revolutionize the research (patent pending as we speak!).  It's coming...and hopefully it won't be too late.  *sigh*

BTW, people elsewhere on this planet are already paying $8/gallon.  It's old news.

John Jebbia wrote:
It's a fake documentary presented in the future.. like 2015. But the documentary is of the current decade.

It's about a worldwide oil crisis brought on by a massive hurricane in New Orleans that shuts down oil importation to the US. Venezuela cuts off oil in favor of China. Saudi Arabia is undergoing a major revolution limiting its exports. The Chinese ally themselves economically with our allies thereby alienating the US. Oil reserves are discovered in Alberta/Saskatchewan, but Canada has it's own problems and economic interests. We invade Venezuela. We aid the Saudi Government. War looms with China. Meanwhile Brazil emerges as a major economic power with its ethenol powered vehicles and abundance of sugar cane from which the ethenol is produced. All the while, we've been asleep at the wheel with development of new alternative fuels. Our economy is in the tank. We're paying $8+/gallon. We're screwed!

Thought you said it was fake!

Jay Dezelic wrote:

I am not sure where the price threshold is, but I think it's around $3.80 per gallon right now in the state of Washington.  With improved manufacturing, higher production volumes, and competition, the price should be just north of $3.50 gal (I think).  Petroleum prices will continue to rise due to supply problems.

I was just poking around the net and found a forum that dealt with ethonal. According to one of the posters the US could not grow enough corn to fuel us. I am not sure if that is correct but it is worth looking into. At the very least it should be mandated that all new cars be flex fuel.

John Jebbia wrote:
2015...We're paying $8+/gallon....

Hm, if that was realistic you'd be looking at an investment that'd
double its value in 9 years. If it weren't for the fact that buying and
burying a 10,000 gallon tank would be a heavy capital outlay, it'd be
worth it.

mjr.

lll wrote:

Jay, we (the conscious engineers) are working on it...we are getting close.  At UW, we just developed a way to accurately measure fuel cell reactions and should help revolutionize the research (patent pending as we speak!).  It's coming...and hopefully it won't be too late.  *sigh*

BTW, people elsewhere on this planet are already paying $8/gallon.  It's old news.

Hurry up... Seeing how you are an engineer, what do you think will be more cost effective, hydrogen or biofuels?

The extra cost they are paying is to fund their liberal (as in ease of recieving) welfare programs. Their "wholesale" cost is about the same as ours.

Mike Cummings wrote:

I was just poking around the net and found a forum that dealt with ethonal. According to one of the posters the US could not grow enough corn to fuel us. I am not sure if that is correct but it is worth looking into. At the very least it should be mandated that all new cars be flex fuel.

Sugar cane and many other crops actually have a much higher yield than corn I am told.  I think the yield for corn was only half or less than surgar cane.  Besides, nobody said that any one technology had to be a 100% replacement for today's oil consumtion.  There is still vast reserves of oil and coal in the US and Canada - it's just not as easy to refine as middle-east crude. and a III pointed out, fuel cell technologies are on the horizon. - and that's really cool stuff.

Jay Dezelic wrote:

Sugar cane and many other crops actually have a much higher yield than corn I am told.  I think the yield for corn was only half or less than surgar cane.  Besides, nobody said that any one technology had to be a 100% replacement for today's oil consumtion.  There is still vast reserves of oil and coal in the US and Canada - it's just not as easy to refine as middle-east crude. and a III pointed out, fuel cell technologies are on the horizon. - and that's really cool stuff.

The only near term problem I see with the fuel cell is the best way at this ponit to "make" hydrogen is from fossil fuels.

You can also use sugar beets. Damn the price of fuel will go down but the price of Coca~Cola will skyrocket.

Mike Cummings wrote:

The only near term problem I see with the fuel cell is the best way at this ponit to "make" hydrogen is from fossil fuels.

You can also use sugar beets. Damn the price of fuel will go down but the price of Coca~Cola will skyrocket.

Mike, water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. Hydrogen is easy to make, but expensive (at this point).

John Jebbia wrote:

I think the biggest hurdle is getting the infrastructure in place to actually do it. The fuel stations would all have to convert. People would need to buy the vehicles. It would have to be a phase in process..

There's one other little inconsequential thing. With today's technology, it takes almost a gallon of ethanol to produce a gallon of ethanol. Alternatively, we can burn huge amounts of oil; to produce ethanol which has about 1/2 the specific energy of gasoline.

Tim Baker wrote:
Mike, water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. Hydrogen is easy to make, but expensive (at this point).

You can extract hydrogen from water or seawater simply but putting 2 copper electrodes from a basic 12 volt battery into the water.

And we all know scientists have been coming up with free energy sources for years.

Mike Cummings wrote:

Hurry up... Seeing how you are an engineer, what do you think will be more cost effective, hydrogen or biofuels?

The extra cost they are paying is to fund their liberal (as in ease of recieving) welfare programs. Their "wholesale" cost is about the same as ours.

Actually, from what I understand, the European fuel prices more accurately reflect the entire cost impact of petroleum based products, costs that traditionally are not reflected in the refinement and extraction processes. Pollution, health costs, etc. Here in Canada the fuel taxes are supposed to be for infrastructure development an maintenance, but in reality the monies collected from the pump taxes goes into general revenue.

John Jebbia wrote:
It's a fake documentary presented in the future.. like 2015. But the documentary is of the current decade.

It's about a worldwide oil crisis brought on by a massive hurricane in New Orleans that shuts down oil importation to the US. Venezuela cuts off oil in favor of China. Saudi Arabia is undergoing a major revolution limiting its exports. The Chinese ally themselves economically with our allies thereby alienating the US. Oil reserves are discovered in Alberta/Saskatchewan, but Canada has it's own problems and economic interests. We invade Venezuela. We aid the Saudi Government. War looms with China. Meanwhile Brazil emerges as a major economic power with its ethenol powered vehicles and abundance of sugar cane from which the ethenol is produced. All the while, we've been asleep at the wheel with development of new alternative fuels. Our economy is in the tank. We're paying $8+/gallon. We're screwed!

I predicted that 20 years ago. but before all of that comes to light, you'll have to wait for the european union to rise as a power. the two powers will be the e.u. and china.

china is talking about building a car factory in my hometown detroit. i have no doubts that this will become a reality. nor do i have no doubt that you will see many companies here that will be chinese owned in the years to come. and general motors i see will fold in the future. i was thinking about this two days ago.

John Jebbia wrote:

I think the biggest hurdle is getting the infrastructure in place to actually do it. The fuel stations would all have to convert. People would need to buy the vehicles. It would have to be a phase in process..

no,

it's called corporate g.r.e.e.d.

John Barz wrote:
Ethenol is not as great as many people say.

http://www.enviroharvest.ca/ethenol.htm

and eventually those hybrid cars will pay for off as gas prices become more and more steep.

John Barz wrote:
Ethenol is not as great as many people say.

http://www.enviroharvest.ca/ethenol.htm

Regardless, the article still points out that biofuels are a better solution than what we have now.  It does not discuss the economic benefits of ridding ourselves from the dependency of forgone oil.  It also does not discuss the difference between carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide emissions. 

Until fuel cell technology is fully implemented, Alcohol (ethanol) is still a much better near term solution than foreign oil.

Tim Baker wrote:

Mike, water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. Hydrogen is easy to make, but expensive (at this point).

Right, but to seperate hydrogen from water the cost is prohibitive. You would need a source of "free" energy like hydroelectric, nuclear, solar, or my personal favorite windmill to do it. We would need a huge hydrogen from water industry in place before fuel cells are the best alternative.

It seems to me what will need to happen will be the same thing that happened in Brazil. There will need to be a huge oil crisis where the common Joe Six Pack with a brain will say "f*ck the govt. f*ck the oil company, I have sh*t to do"...  next thing you know we will have SUVs converted to steam , hydrogen, biodesiel, electric power.. etc. The corporate types will scramble to create the technology to make transportation affordable again.