Looknsee Photography wrote:
At a recent owners meeting, and without a vote, the ownership decided that if a team has players who take a knee during the Star Spangled Banner will be punished with a fine and/or a 15 yard penalty.

Thoughts?

I think it's disgusting...
...  You can't protect free speech without also protecting unpopular free speech (within limits).
...  To me, there is nothing more patriotic than protest.
...  The protest is about racial inequality & specifically the alarming number of unarmed minorities being
     shot by the police,
...  The protest is not intended to be disrespectful to the flag or the people in the Armed Services.

That being said, I also think that this protest is a poor one because it's actions are open to interpretation and because it doesn't address the source of the discontent.  The 1960 whites-only lunch counter protest was much more direct & much more difficult to "spin".

So again, thoughts?  What do you think or wish the players to do?

This thread on Memorial weekend. Wow, just wow.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
...  The protest is not intended to be disrespectful to the flag or the people in the Armed Services.

But it is....

Those who do not want to stand for Our National Anthem may remain in the locker room. Football is a team sport and no place for an individuals political agenda. IMO the consequences of not standing, which is disrespectful, aren't tough enough.  .

hbutz New York wrote:
It's corporate slavery.  While the corporation pays the players, the players need to represent the corporation in a good light.  Political expression and freedom of speech is suspended while they're being paid.

Y'know -- I thought about that.  On one hand, those players are wearing the team uniforms, and if I was an owner, I might ask players to wear a cloak or a blanket to cover the uniform while they are taking a knee.  On the other hand, 21st century slavery (or more accurately, racial inequality) is possibly at the heart of this dispute.  Suppose the "owners" required "their" players to pray to Jesus Christ?  Suppose the "owners" required "their" to vote a certain way?

I'll go back to a comment from my OP -- this is an imperfect protest because it isn't against the NFL, the owners, the fans, the flag, and/or the military.  It's a muddled protest.

GRMACK wrote:
Seems the public made their own protest of not wanting to listen to the players protests, and the NFL listened.

I'm tired of listening to the pre/during/and post game show sports commentators going on about "So and so is taking a knee" or not, ...

"Just shut up and sing!" or "Shut up and play ball!"  If not, I'll spend my money elsewhere to be entertained.

Yeah, the NFL could have required the broadcasters not to show the sidelines during the anthem.  But no -- they sought to stifle the opinions of some of their employees.

What Fun Productions wrote:
This thread on Memorial weekend. Wow, just wow.

Seems to me to be a perfect time, honoring all those fallen heroes who died to preserve our freedom of speech.  In addition, the owners made it the news of this weekend.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
What about this?

False.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tim-t … el-anthem/

What Fun Productions wrote:
BTW showing disrespect for the flag and what it stands for is in NO WAY honoring the fallen soldiers.

That is BS spin.

That's an opinion & not a fact.  As has been stated by the players, the intent was a statement against racial inequality & police brutality against minorities and was not intended to be disrespectful to the flag. 

And as many a veteran has stated, they fought for people's right to protest & to enjoy peaceful free speech.

Trying to make the players' kneeling about the flag and/or about disrespecting veterans -- that's the BS spin.

And yes, that's my opinion (and the stated opinion of the players doing the kneeling).


On other topics -- thanks for the fact-check on the Tebow meme.

Also, "don't stand / don't play" -- that's abhorrent.  That's something I'd expect from North Korea.  And that part where they still get paid but they just don't play -- what becomes of the NFL if a significant number of the big stars decide to sit for a game or three? 

One final opinion:  those who can't tolerate people with alternate points of view are a large part of this whole problem.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
That's an opinion & not a fact.  As has been stated by the players, the intent was a statement against racial inequality & police brutality against minorities and was not intended to be disrespectful to the flag. 

And has many a veteran has stated, they fought for people's right to protest & to enjoy peaceful free speech.

Trying to make the players' kneeling about the flag and/or about disrespecting veterans -- that's the BS spin.

And yes, that's my opinion (and the stated opinion of the players doing the kneeling).


On other topics -- thanks for the fact-check on the Tebow meme.

Also, "don't stand / don't play" -- that's abhorrent.  That's something I'd expect from North Korea.  And that part where they still get paid but they just don't play -- what becomes of the NFL if a significant number of the big stars decide to sit for a game or three? 

One final opinion:  those who can't tolerate people with alternate points of view are a large part of this whole problem.

Players stating that it is not meant to be disrespectful is ridiculous at it's face value. Why do it if it is not meant to disrespect the flag? It's nonsense. It's all about the flag.

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color"
Colin Kaepernick

They can protest anywhere else they want... 24/7... Just not at there employer's place of work. They caused their company's revenue to fall.

They have chosen to divide Americans and to disrespect the men and women who have served and who have given their life for the freedoms they enjoy.

What Fun Productions wrote:
Players stating that it is not meant to be disrespectful is ridiculous at it's face value. Why do it if it is not meant to disrespect the flag? It's nonsense. It's all about the flag.

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color"
Colin Kaepernick

They can protest anywhere else they want... 24/7... Just not at there employer's place of work. They caused their company's revenue to fall.

They have chosen to divide Americans and to disrespect the men and women who have served and who have given their life for the freedoms they enjoy.

The freedoms they enjoy, which are a little less than the freedom that other people enjoy?

All those people that gave their lives for this country and still one group had to fight to sit at a lunch counter- or a Starbucks?  Did not that group also shed their blood for the flag that relegated them to be lesser beings, worthy of fewer rights and minimal freedoms?  For the most part, the people that died in the service of OUR country, died fighting foreign threats.  What about all the people that were civilians that died at the hands of domestic enemies that used a rope, fire, bombs and terror against men, women and children- CHILDREN!- LITTLE GIRLS!- to keep people from realizing their potential?  Did all those service members die so that maps could be rigged to prevent various groups defined by color or ideology a proportional representation in Congress?  When those people, our soldiers, died against foreign threats, was our country finished with the experiment, having achieved the high principles in the Pledge of "Liberty and Justice for ALL?"  Or is it just some that get Liberty and Justice? 

Why do YOU waste and squander the blood of Americans that died to free slaves, and Americans that died around the world for the American ideal, by tolerating an authoritarian, hateful society, which broadcasts to the world that Justice and Liberty is only for the people of the right color?  If you don't want them to kneel before the flag, then why don't you stand with them to change the obvious deficiencies?  How many more generations, how many more wars, before we address the problems we have at home?  In the last two football seasons, what have you done to improve our country?  Show us how much the blood of our service members really means to you.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:

The freedoms they enjoy, which are a little less than the freedom that other people enjoy?

All those people that gave their lives for this country and still one group had to fight to sit at a lunch counter- or a Starbucks?  Did not that group also shed their blood for the flag that relegated them to be lesser beings, worthy of fewer rights and minimal freedoms?  For the most part, the people that died in the service of their country died fighting foreign threats.  What about all the people that were civilians that died at the hands of domestic enemies that used a rope, fire, bombs and terror against men, women and children- CHILDREN!- LITTLE GIRLS EVEN- to keep people from realizing their potential?  Did all those service members die so that maps could be rigged to prevent various groups defined by color or ideology a proportional representation in Congress?  When those people, our soldiers, died against foreign threats, was our country finished with the experiment, having achieved the high principles in the Pledge of "Liberty and Justice for ALL?"  Or is it just some that get Liberty and Justice? 

Why do YOU waste and squander the blood of Americans that died to free slaves, and Americans that died around the world for the American ideal, by tolerating an authoritarian, hateful society, which broadcasts to the world that Justice and Liberty is only for the people of the right color?  If you don't want them to kneel before the flag, then why don't you stand with them to change the obvious deficiencies?  How many more generations, how many more wars, before we address the problems we have at home?  In the last two football seasons, what have you done to improve our country?  Show us how much the blood of our service members really means to you.

WOW !!!!

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
OP
The times the are a changin

Or are they ?

I had the same thought except the Olympics are seen by the entire world...The NFL is uniquely USA, except Canada.....

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
What ever the OPs opinions, and that is all they are; (by the way they are free to have such opinions) the actions of those millionaires protesting their grievances by showing disrespect to the flag, and our anthem and the 100s of thousands men and women who served and paid the ultimate sacrifice for this nation, is the reason I stopped watching NFL football.  Say what they will their actions speak louder than words.

Y'know ...
...  Is it disrespectful to the flag?
...  Is it disrespectful to veterans?
...  Is it appropriate or inappropriate for Memorial Day?
Any answer is an opinion.  But the people doing the kneeling have been clear about their intent -- you are free to choose to ignore it.

But let's observe one important thing:  by talking about "disrespecting" the flag or veterans, the entire narrative has been hijacked.  We are mostly not talking about racial inequality or about how unarmed black people who are doing nothing wrong / illegal / immoral have been gunned downed by police, who were supposed to be protecting them.  That's the issue.

So, this Memorial Day -- let's remember those service folks who made the ultimate sacrifices to protect our freedoms & rights.  But what's wrong with also remembering those citizens whose lives were cut short by the state of race relations in this country, too?


And bravo, Hunter GWPB!

What Fun Productions wrote:
Players stating that it is not meant to be disrespectful is ridiculous at it's face value. Why do it if it is not meant to disrespect the flag? It's nonsense. It's all about the flag.

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color"
Colin Kaepernick

They can protest anywhere else they want... 24/7... Just not at there employer's place of work. They caused their company's revenue to fall.

They have chosen to divide Americans and to disrespect the men and women who have served and who have given their life for the freedoms they enjoy.

So, I'm confused?
...  Are you saying that our country doesn't "oppress black people & people of color"?
...  Are you saying we can't criticize our country if/when we feel it needs to make improvements?
...  Are you saying that employees have the right to make their employees "toe the line"?

As I've said, this protest is not well conceived & somewhat misdirected, but I can't blame the players for using their fame and the popularity of the game to publicize their protests.  But I think that famous people should do some protesting across the street from the police stations where some of these atrocities occurred. 

And in my opinion, it's the people who choose to feel that these protests disrespect the flag & veterans are the ones who chose to divide us -- they have hijacked the narrative so that we are not talking about race relations.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

So, I'm confused?
...  Are you saying that our country doesn't "oppress black people & people of color"?
...  Are you saying we can't criticize our country if/when we feel it needs to make improvements?
...  Are you saying that employees have the right to make their employees "toe the line"?

As I've said, this protest is not well conceived & somewhat misdirected, but I can't blame the players for using their fame and the popularity of the game to publicize their protests.  But I think that famous people should do some protesting across the street from the police stations where some of these atrocities occurred. 

And in my opinion, it's the people who choose to feel that these protests disrespect the flag & veterans are the ones who chose to divide us -- they have hijacked the narrative so that we are not talking about race relations.

So, in your opinion, it would be fine for a player to burn the flag during the National Anthem?

How about burning a cross on the field?

Or his first amendment right to wear a swastika on his uniform?

Hunter  GWPB wrote:

The freedoms they enjoy, which are a little less than the freedom that other people enjoy?

All those people that gave their lives for this country and still one group had to fight to sit at a lunch counter- or a Starbucks?  Did not that group also shed their blood for the flag that relegated them to be lesser beings, worthy of fewer rights and minimal freedoms?  For the most part, the people that died in the service of OUR country, died fighting foreign threats.  What about all the people that were civilians that died at the hands of domestic enemies that used a rope, fire, bombs and terror against men, women and children- CHILDREN!- LITTLE GIRLS!- to keep people from realizing their potential?  Did all those service members die so that maps could be rigged to prevent various groups defined by color or ideology a proportional representation in Congress?  When those people, our soldiers, died against foreign threats, was our country finished with the experiment, having achieved the high principles in the Pledge of "Liberty and Justice for ALL?"  Or is it just some that get Liberty and Justice? 

Why do YOU waste and squander the blood of Americans that died to free slaves, and Americans that died around the world for the American ideal, by tolerating an authoritarian, hateful society, which broadcasts to the world that Justice and Liberty is only for the people of the right color?  If you don't want them to kneel before the flag, then why don't you stand with them to change the obvious deficiencies?  How many more generations, how many more wars, before we address the problems we have at home?  In the last two football seasons, what have you done to improve our country?  Show us how much the blood of our service members really means to you.

No reason to make this personal with your racist rhetoric. I have not said, at any time, that our country is not a work in progress. I understand fully that equality is not easy for some... That the playing field is not level... That there are MANY problems that need attention... I just strongly disagree with using the flag as a prop when it means so much to so many...

This is Memorial Day weekend. We honor the loss of life of ALL skin colors that have given the greatest sacrifice for that flag.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
What ever the OPs opinions, and that is all they are; (by the way they are free to have such opinions) the actions of those millionaires protesting their grievances by showing disrespect to the flag, and our anthem and the 100s of thousands men and women who served and paid the ultimate sacrifice for this nation, is the reason I stopped watching NFL football.  Say what they will their actions speak louder than words.

The NFL as a business has a right to determine how their players dress, and behave during any game.  If they determine that players should stand, let them stand or suffer the consequences.  I could care less who plays or not.

Yep.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
So, I'm confused?
...  Are you saying that our country doesn't "oppress black people & people of color"?
...  Are you saying we can't criticize our country if/when we feel it needs to make improvements?
...  Are you saying that employees have the right to make their employees "toe the line"?

As I've said, this protest is not well conceived & somewhat misdirected, but I can't blame the players for using their fame and the popularity of the game to publicize their protests.  But I think that famous people should do some protesting across the street from the police stations where some of these atrocities occurred. 

And in my opinion, it's the people who choose to feel that these protests disrespect the flag & veterans are the ones who chose to divide us -- they have hijacked the narrative so that we are not talking about race relations.

What Fun Productions wrote:
So, in your opinion, it would be fine for a player to burn the flag during the National Anthem?

How about burning a cross on the field?

Or his first amendment right to wear a swastika on his uniform?

Where the heck do you get that from what I said?  You are using a pretty classic logical fallacy here.

You quoted Kap, you claimed his quote proved that he was disrespecting the flag, I asked if you felt that he didn't have a point.

And stop clubbing baby seals on the head!

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Y'know ...
...  Is it disrespectful to the flag?
...  Is it disrespectful to veterans?
...  Is it appropriate or inappropriate for Memorial Day?
Any answer is an opinion.  But the people doing the kneeling have been clear about their intent -- you are free to choose to ignore it.

[...]

You tell us that any answer is an opinion... like the opinion of the kneeling players that it is not disrespectful? That is their opinion, others dont share it. Please stop saying it isnt offensive to the flag, or veterans. It is offensive to some, just not you.

I recognize the validity of Kaepernick's protest. Equality is a myth. It is one of the most glaring failures of my generation. We started so well, with the civil rights gains of the early 60's---but we stopped just when we were making real progress.

And I support Kaepernick's right to protest. He has every right to voice his opinions. But, I think he chose the wrong venue, and I am personally offended by his disrespect to a symbol that means something to me and and lots of others.... I feel he could have chosen any of hundreds of other forums , and in truth feel he is hurting his own cause because of the way he chose to protest.

He isnt the first to disrespect things that mean a lot to me, and he wont be the last. That is the nature of a society where you  are free to express your opinions. I may not always enjoy it, but I wouldnt have it any other way.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Y'know ...
...  Is it disrespectful to the flag?
...  Is it disrespectful to veterans?
...  Is it appropriate or inappropriate for Memorial Day?
Any answer is an opinion.  But the people doing the kneeling have been clear about their intent -- you are free to choose to ignore it.

[...]

rfordphotos wrote:
You tell us that any answer is an opinion... like the opinion of the kneeling players that it is not disrespectful? That is their opinion, others dont share it. Please stop saying it isnt offensive to the flag, or veterans. It is offensive to some, just not you.

I think I've been pretty clear that my position is my opinion.  Where we might differ is that I believe the kneeling players have clearly expressed that it was not their intention to disrespect the flag or veterans.

rfordphotos wrote:
...  And I support Kaepernick's right to protest. He has every right to voice his opinions. But, I think he chose the wrong venue, and I am personally offended by his disrespect to a symbol that means something to me and and lots of others.

I think I've been clear in expressing my opinion that this particular protest was poorly conceived & misplaced.  It's confusing and can be easily misinterpreted (unlike those 1960 lunch counter protests).

rfordphotos wrote:
He isnt the first to disrespect things that mean a lot to me, and he wont be the last. That is the nature of a society where your are free to express your opinions. I may not always enjoy it, but I wouldnt have it any other way.

And that's exactly why many veterans have no problem with the protests.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I think I've been pretty clear that my position is my opinion.  Where we might differ is that I believe the kneeling players have clearly expressed that it was not their intention to disrespect the flag or veterans.

And regardless of their intentions thousands of veterans (like me) do indeed find their actions disrespectful. I dont care what their intentions were in that regard, the results of their actions were offensive to me.

Surely if they have the right to protest, I have the right to find that protest offensive without someone telling me I am wrong?

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I think I've been clear in expressing my opinion that this particular protest was poorly conceived & misplaced.  It's confusing and can be easily misinterpreted (unlike those 1960 lunch counter protests).

And yet, even when Kaepernick saw the reception his protest got, saw that the discussion wasnt about the issue of systemic racial bias in the police, but instead was about Colin Kaepernick---- he did absolutely nothing to redirect the discusssion.

I think the league totally screwed this up, they share maybe the lions share of the blame for how this whole thing has played out.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
And that's exactly why many veterans have no problem with the protests.

I didnt realize you had served.

What Fun Productions wrote:
This thread on Memorial weekend. Wow, just wow.

What Fun Productions wrote:
No reason to make this personal with your racist rhetoric. I have not said, at any time, that our country is not a work in progress. I understand fully that equality is not easy for some... That the playing field is not level... That there are MANY problems that need attention... I just strongly disagree with using the flag as a prop when it means so much to so many...

This is Memorial Day weekend. We honor the loss of life of ALL skin colors that have given the greatest sacrifice for that flag.

You know that there is a disparity that the citizens of this country enjoy and that disparity is relative to race and gender, but you have expressed a willingness to deprive other people of the same freedoms that you have.  There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you a veto over the expression of free speech of others, or when the free speech is expressed, or the content of the speech.   This Memorial Day, when you consider the people that made the ultimate sacrifice, ponder the ones that died for their country who were less valuable to their country, who were less free and who would never have been given the same freedoms for the same ultimate price and that they left behind children that fear for their lives because of the color of their skin. 

Perhaps it is time that you stopped thinking of your country as a flag, and started thinking of it as people.

Black Z Eddie wrote:
I like the idea those media sheep are left to pout in their powder rooms.  At least we won't have to look at the whiny, melodramatic, knee jerkin', see-only-what-you-want-to-see pieces of shit faces.

It's fucking ridiculous they keep saying it's about minority injustice.  Nobody bats an eye when a white person or a cop gets killed by a minority.  You don't see the media jumpin' all over it.  When they do, it's just passed over as eh.

Bottom line, protest or rally just like everyone else.  Take a day off, call in sick, whatever and do in the streets.

+1

Preach!