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Invenova wrote:
And the summary is......?

On the first post.  In bold letters.

I should have known better.  Nobody reads.

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Nikki Kruex wrote:
I tell my photogs first hand.  Before we shoot I would like you to know I intend to request raw images, I will save you any immediate trouble as I intend to retouch my own. (most of the time I do a better job of it as a 10 year adobe vet and a schooled gaphic artist),  So it's nice to know that there are no legal bindings.  Thanks TX!

10 years??

Wow I would like to see how you would look like with out photoshop.  Any photographer that gives out there raw images is a total douche.

Nikki Kruex wrote:
I tell my photogs first hand.  Before we shoot I would like you to know I intend to request raw images, I will save you any immediate trouble as I intend to retouch my own. (most of the time I do a better job of it as a 10 year adobe vet and a schooled gaphic artist),  So it's nice to know that there are no legal bindings.  Thanks TX!

You have ever right to make that request, however, I think any photographer that would agree to it is insane...

Paramour Productions wrote:
You know, TX, a slight acknowledgment would have been nice....

Quite right.  It's fixed.  Heat of battle thing, or battle fatigue, will be my excuse.

TXPhotog wrote:

Quite right.  It's fixed.  Heat of battle thing, or battle fatigue, will be my excuse.

You're a Prince among men.

Nikki Kruex wrote:
I tell my photogs first hand.  Before we shoot I would like you to know I intend to request raw images, I will save you any immediate trouble as I intend to retouch my own. (most of the time I do a better job of it as a 10 year adobe vet and a schooled gaphic artist),  So it's nice to know that there are no legal bindings.  Thanks TX!

Paramour Productions wrote:
You have ever right to make that request, however, I think any photographer that would agree to it is insane...

Just because a model may be permitted to retouch images herself doesn't mean that she has a right to whatever images she wants or that she will be provided them in RAW or unedited format.  In negotiating and granting the license, the photographer still has full control over what he will provide (while the model is free to decline the shoot if she isn't getting what she wants).

An important point, however, to add to this thread, is that there is nothing in Tx's discussion which stops a photographer from issuing a license to a model permitting her to only copy or redistribute unedited images.  For that matter, the photographer could grant a license to permit her to only re-distribute images without ketchup on them.

But Tx is absolutely right, there is nothing in the law which prevents a model from editing images.  If you want to control what is done with images you provide to a model, you need clear and concise language which memorializes the licensee's rights.

Great post Tx.

richard boswell wrote:
so can i then assume that i can retouch a model any way i choose put her name under the photo and post it anywhere on the web or put it in my port?

just curious?

r

retouching and publishing are two different areas.  If you have a valid model release which would allow you to publish the image, then the answer is yes.  Your physical port would typically be exempt from the release requirement, however an online port is somewhat of a grey area - best to have the release.

TXPhotog wrote:
OPENING STATEMENT

In a thread that started out as something else, we (again) got sidetracked into a discussion of a model’s legal rights to retouch photos given to her by a photographer for her use in self-promotion.  Some people claim she does not have that right.  That is false.

If it is true that the model has the right to make copies of the pictures (as, for instance, on her comp card or web site), if she has not been explicitly forbidden by the photographer to retouch her pictures she can legally retouch copies of her pictures.

Moreover, if the photographer gives her prints for her book, she can retouch the print itself legally.  That has been going on for far longer than Photoshop has existed.

That right to retouch is not absolute; it means relatively minor changes like getting rid of skin blemishes, not adding angel wings and false backgrounds.  But as long as the model (or someone acting for her) limits herself to small changes, there is nothing in the law which prohibits it.

I fully understand that there are those who disagree, or who will want an explanation and proof.  I also understand that nobody reads long posts, so I will try to keep each post on each part of the issue to reasonably manageable size.

I need to emphasize that I am not a lawyer, although I have been a successful plaintiff in copyright infringement suits, and have been involved for years on a daily basis with dealing with attorneys and others on intellectual property issues.  I have paid tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees for the knowledge and experience I have on these issues.  Nonetheless, it would be reasonable for people to want real opinions from real Copyright (Intellectual Property) attorneys on these issues, and I will provide them in posts below.  I will provide quotations from the US Copyright Office.  I will also provide links to, and selections from, Federal Appeals Court decisions that are directly related to this issue in the posts that follow in this thread.

Most of what follows has already appeared in other threads.  It is not new to MM.  Still, people seem never to have encountered it, perhaps because it ends up (as I suppose this thread will, sigh) in threads hundreds of pages long.  So here it is, right up front.

Amen

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

Nikki Kruex wrote:
I tell my photogs first hand.  Before we shoot I would like you to know I intend to request raw images, I will save you any immediate trouble as I intend to retouch my own. (most of the time I do a better job of it as a 10 year adobe vet and a schooled gaphic artist),  So it's nice to know that there are no legal bindings.  Thanks TX!

Just because a model may be permitted to retouch images herself doesn't mean that she has a right to whatever images she wants or that she will be provided them in RAW or unedited format.  In negotiating and granting the license, the photographer still has full control over what he will provide (while the model is free to decline the shoot if she isn't getting what she wants).

An important point, however, to add to this thread, is that there is nothing in Tx's discussion which stops a photographer from issuing a license to a model permitting her to only copy or redistribute unedited images.  For that matter, the photographer could grant a license to permit her to only re-distribute images without ketchup on them.

But Tx is absolutely right, there is nothing in the law which prevents a model from editing images.  If you want to control what is done with images you provide to a model, you need clear and concise language which memorializes the licensee's rights.

Great post Tx.

This is absolutely true and it was the point of my getting involved in the other thread in the first place.  The point is for photographer's to understand what they need to provide in the form of a usage license so that bad retouching does not occur.  Part of the problem, quite frankly, is internet photographers who actually do provide all images (raw or otherwise) from a shoot.  This practice is as absurd as it is unprofessional.