Posted by theda: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 
wow you guys are all FOR freedom of expression UNTIL someone disagrees with ya! HYPOCRITES d;.)

I must have missed the part where anyone besides you (and maybe a couple of others on your side) advocated censorship. Please point it out to me. As far as I can tell, everyone thinks you have as much right to mouth off as the next guy.

wait i didnt see this part,,, I AM NOT ADVOCATING CENSORSHIP,, before any one else writes ONE MORE THING please read from page one. I am talking about NOT contributing to the sickness in our culture. I have a right to voice that idea.

Posted by Viva Van Story: 

Posted by KoolGirlieStuff: 

Posted by Viva Van Story: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 

Posted by Viva Van Story: 
I've known this photographer for along time... please.. it's like Betty Page old photos.  It's harmless and I know models that have worked with the photographer.. this is silly!  Who is anyone to judge what's art or not.. Controversial images are apart of art today!  Let's face reality!

Controversial images are apart of art today!  Let's face reality!  OK NOW! This attitude FROSTS Chill right into a GLACIER!   If eating excrement were to suddenly become "art" or trendy or cool,,how many here would be the first to do it?  Accepting this stuff as art, is ludicrous!

You are not going to win here.. do you want someone to decide if your photos are art or not?  Pick up the book, Art Matters, how the culture wars changed america... you may not like someone's work but it doesn't make it not art to everyone. I'll let the glaciers cover me whole before I'll take that freedom away from my work.  Some of my favorite photographers/artists are controversial artists.  If the photographer used a model dressed up like Betty Page or Tempest Storm all tied up and gaged - people would have loved it.. I know because I do them and my fans LOVE them.. they are funny and cute and they are all acting and playing.. just like in that photographers portfolio.. so he needs some help on his photography tech stuff.. it's all about trying things out and enjoying the learning experience.  Who are we to decide his subject material? If you are going to be an opened minded individual you should think about this a little more before responding again.   

Here I go defending a fetish.........

I`m not too sure I can give my opinion on the photographer`s images in question, but I can surely add my opinion on the "damsel in distress" photography

This as it`s been said before has been part of many many cultures as a form of fetish for well hundreds if not thousands of years, but in AMERICAN POP CULTURE we seem to have forgotten the "Perils Of Pauline" in the silent film days of the poor girl who`s captured by the bad guy and saved by the good guy.....this whole "idea" fueled the fetish even more, and how many SPY movies were made in the 1940`s were the girl or guy`s were captured by the Nazi and Japanese agents and tied up.....?

Popular American culture seems to LOVE the  PRUDE and PROPER 1950`s where everything was clean and chrome and happy familles and rock n roll......well it was`nt all happy and sun shining there was a "dark side" to the 1950`s and this included bondage photography

One of the most famous models of this era was a plain Jane but pretty country gal from Tennessee......her name was Bettie Page

Bettie Page was by far the TOP CHEESECAKE/PINUP MEN`S MAGAZINE model in the USA 1956-1960 (it was only 4 years but the changed the underground fetish culture scene forever)
Needless to say the US SUPREME COURT and the FEDS in the prudish times made Irving Klaw DESTROY thousands of negatives of Bettie and many other girls who worked in these bondage fetish photoshoots and movies for him in NYC
(these styles of photos and light film loops are now considered priceless and are ACCEPTED into American popular culture as much as Marilyn Monroe, tommy guns, a woman`s thigh and a garter belts and dead policemen`s images in modern films......that has to do with censorship a totally different story, but it`s made to make a point)

I see nothing WRONG with bondage photography if it`s shot in a NON SEXUAL way and that there`s NO ILLEGAL practices done during the making of it

Now mind you there`s some photographers and companies who make this fetish into a full blown sexual thing and they are nothing but sleazy, cheap pornographer sell out bastards who manipulate the models or situations into a money making sceme......that`s NOT art and well doesn`t fall into my opinion of what the fetish really is

I shoot RETRO FETISH BONDAGE photography as an art form, more time goes into the styles and the clothes and the whole situation then just throwing a girl down someplace and tying her up............really to each his own here, but I think SLAMMING the fetish is like people SLAMMING homosexual men or lesbian women for their lifestyle and as we have grown out of that PRUDISH 1950`s way of thinking here I think everyone should be given a chance and a way of expressing themselves in an artistic way of thinking


If anyone finds that there`s TOO many ADULT styled pix on this site BRING it to TY`s attention.........and maybe here`s an even BETTER suggestion, just have the ADULT models and photographer`s into their OWN group like a possible members only area where the work of NON ADULT shooters and models won`t interact/clash  with ADULT shooters and models..........I say SPLIT THEM UP....THAT`S THE FINE ART WAY OF DOING IT THEN EVERYONE`S HAPPY

The OMP is TRASH while it`s full of PORN and bullshit, but that`s while no one cared about it, I can see the FOCUS of this thread was about the "style" of photography being here, but after seeing people BASH the fetish I had to say something, while bashing something while you HATE it or don`t understand it is`nt fair, I HATE PORN, but I don`t bash the people who do it or make it, I too think that their art should be separate from other artists who feel the same way I do

Now I hope that made some sense and hopefully people will understand that not all BONDAGE photography is TRASH and BAD it`s actually American culture

Tom

PS:(I know what it feels to be bashed about something....I got it once for a "Lolita" photo I did with a 19 year old model, who was acting out the movie role, but sick minds twist art into things too sometimes if the model in question looks 16 that`s a coincidence of the art.....if she is 16 and what she`s doing is illegal that`s JAIL TIME for the photographer PLAIN AND SIMPLE)

And this is why I love you..  smart as a whip! 

I love you too Viva!

Posted by theda: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 
wow you guys are all FOR freedom of expression UNTIL someone disagrees with ya! HYPOCRITES d;.)

I must have missed the part where anyone besides you (and maybe a couple of others on your side) advocated censorship. Please point it out to me. As far as I can tell, everyone thinks you have as much right to mouth off as the next guy.

I am not impressed with hordes of pseudo intellectuals, what does impress me are the few people who have the GUTS to see this material for what it is and say " You know what,,this is harmful to society in a variety of ways, and I am going to point it out and call it what is is,,,GARBAGE".

Posted by Chill Factor: 
I am not impressed with hordes of pseudo intellectuals, what does impress me are the few voice who have the GUTS to see this material for what it is and say " You know what,,this is harmful to society in a variety of ways, and I am going to point it out and call it what is is,,,GARBAGE".

Are you really that incapable of accepting that not everyone agrees with your take on this subject?

Frankly, it does read an awful lot like you're advocating removal of this material from the public eye. If that isn't censorship, what is?

Posted by theda: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 
I am not impressed with hordes of pseudo intellectuals, what does impress me are the few voice who have the GUTS to see this material for what it is and say " You know what,,this is harmful to society in a variety of ways, and I am going to point it out and call it what is is,,,GARBAGE".

Are you really that incapable of accepting that not everyone agrees with your take on this subject?

Frankly, it does read an awful lot like you're advocating removal of this material from the public eye. If that isn't censorship, what is?

Are you Theda really that incapable of seeing that I don't care who disagrees with me on this? As I have said all along it only adds to the BIG picture part of the problem.

Posted by McKenzie: 
   This thread started from a distasteful image to now, people arguing.  This is about as controversial as gay rights, religion etc.  And with that said, I am pretty open minded.  I don't close my mind off to things like that.  To get to the point, there are a lot of not so good photographers out there that would shoot "jail bait".  There are people out there that are going to notice pics like the one mentioned on the first page which started this whole thread and they are going to say something about it.  Maybe  because they are concerned and looking out for others...who knows.  Not all fetishes are a bad thing to each their own, I may not agree to ALL of them, but some of them are not that bad either.  This site is different because it does "weed" out most of the things that you would find on OMP and other sites. "Art" can be a variety of things, I agree.  I am not bashing fetishes, I may not agree with all of them, but like mentioned before...to each their own.  Same way with porn, it may not be for me, but again, whatever.  I have seen a lot of photographers workings that I like and some include nudity, so it isn't that I am against that either, obviously like said before, there are markets out there, and you can avoid them if it isn't "your thing".  There are also a lot of creeps out there too....the "monkey see, monkey do" kind of people, and some explicit pics can give them ideas.  There are many different views on things.  And everyone should respect the "opinions" stated.  Not everyone will agree on the definition of art, and for porn and fetish, well that is just a sexuality preference (a turn on).  I respect all posts made, so don't get me wrong, but there is good and bad to everything.  Opening your mind to see all consequences is not a bad thing, but prepares you for what could come out of it. 

McKenzie

The voice of REASON! Finally!

Posted by theda: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 
I am not impressed with hordes of pseudo intellectuals, what does impress me are the few voice who have the GUTS to see this material for what it is and say " You know what,,this is harmful to society in a variety of ways, and I am going to point it out and call it what is is,,,GARBAGE".

Are you really that incapable of accepting that not everyone agrees with your take on this subject?

Frankly, it does read an awful lot like you're advocating removal of this material from the public eye. If that isn't censorship, what is?

I see that I am outnumbered ,who cares?

If it meant that one less person got killed or raped as a result of me giving up my "right" to view graphic, or violent material in a public place then I would do it. Holding the popular opinion does not necessarily mean that you have the correct one. Dig deeper.

Posted by theda: 
Aside from not screaming "fire" in a crowded theater, I really don't have personal limits.  I can't think of any topic that in and of itself I wouldn't want to see the subject of humor, art or discussion.

Of course, this oactually puts me in the minority. The fact that we have a thread in which a small majority seems to be in support of (or at least not against) violent erotica here is an anomoly to say the least. I think society as a whole is a lot more conservative than that.

Wether someone likes or dislikes violent erotica, wether or not there is a market for it, just exactly what ( other than the obvious) positive impact can it possibly have in the world? People can listen to various forms of music and itlifts their spirits,, that's a positive contribution..People can indulge in various other forms of artistic expression, and benefit in countless other ways . Seriously I want to know what this form of art contributes to the world that can make it a better place? I am not seeing it, someone point out the pluses to Chill!

Posted by Chill Factor: 
Wether someone likes or dislikes violent erotica, wether or not there is a market for it, just exactly what ( other than the obvious) positive impact can it possibly have in the world? People can listen to various forms of music and itlifts their spirits,, that's a positive contribution..People can indulge in various other forms of artistic expression, and benefit in countless other ways . Seriously I want to know what this form of art contributes to the world that can make it a better place? I am not seeing it, someone point out the pluses to Chill!

I've addressed this twice. Sublimation of desires that are inherent to human nature in a non-violent way. I suggest reading Wendy McElroy and Nadine Strossen for an in-depth discussion, if it's not too pseudo-intellectual for you.

Posted by theda: 

Posted by Chill Factor: 
Wether someone likes or dislikes violent erotica, wether or not there is a market for it, just exactly what ( other than the obvious) positive impact can it possibly have in the world? People can listen to various forms of music and itlifts their spirits,, that's a positive contribution..People can indulge in various other forms of artistic expression, and benefit in countless other ways . Seriously I want to know what this form of art contributes to the world that can make it a better place? I am not seeing it, someone point out the pluses to Chill!

I've addressed this twice. Sublimation of desires that are inherent to human nature in a non-violent way. I suggest reading Wendy McElroy and Nadine Strossen for an in-depth discussion, if it's not too pseudo-intellectual for you.

Ok good will check it out,,if it makes any kind of sense at all, Chill will comprehend but not necessarily AGREE.

Posted by Herb Way: 
If we really want to look at the "big picture," let's try looking at how these discussions deterioriate into nastiness and personal attacks and how they reveal the insensitivity, intolerance, and mean spirit that seem to be becoming the norm in contemporary society.  Just look at what happened last week with Lexi's post about plus modeling.  I'm not the most internet savvy guy and my ventures into the Model Mayhem forums represent my my first experiences with these kinds of discussions.  I've found it to be highly educational, the stuff that sociological studies and books are made of.  No doubt, the "creative" community is every bit as screwed up as the rest of scoiety. 

I 2nd that motion.

Posted by Steven LaMarco: 

Posted by Herb Way: 
If we really want to look at the "big picture," let's try looking at how these discussions deterioriate into nastiness and personal attacks and how they reveal the insensitivity, intolerance, and mean spirit that seem to be becoming the norm in contemporary society.  Just look at what happened last week with Lexi's post about plus modeling.  I'm not the most internet savvy guy and my ventures into the Model Mayhem forums represent my my first experiences with these kinds of discussions.  I've found it to be highly educational, the stuff that sociological studies and books are made of.  No doubt, the "creative" community is every bit as screwed up as the rest of scoiety. 

I 2nd that motion.

Stay strong, Steve!

Posted by Steven LaMarco: 
U 2 brother. 

I'm reminded of the title of an old Milt Jackson LP, "Aint But a Few of Us Left"

Posted by Steven LaMarco: 
First off, I did the wrong thing by pointing out 193 and his work. It was very unprofessional of me and I am sorry for not knowing better.

Bad PR i sbetter than none, so at least I will not feel all that bad about it in the end.

Anything I talked about was not making it illeagle, is was more about having a morel oblagation. Either way, I am not here ot push my veiws down peoples pie holes. I am here to network with great talent and better my own art.

I will for now on let my work talk for me and keep my pie hole shut.

Again, sorry for posting your profile, I was wrong to do so. 

Apology accepted.

Posted by emac: 
What Veronica has said sounds to me like the final word.

To each his own.

Please let this thread end now.

Well said..this should draw to an end

Posted by Alex Alexander: 

Posted by emac: 
What Veronica has said sounds to me like the final word.

To each his own.

Please let this thread end now.

Well said..this should draw to an end

"Blessed is the man who has nothing to say and can't be persuaded to say it." -- Edward R. Murrow