Philip Brown wrote:
Knowing the full details of wardrobe before a shoot, seems like just a smart and sensible thing to me.
Is this somehow outlandish behaviour??

I think it would depend on the context in which the Model is viewing the request. 

Are they assuming You want pictures of them wearing the outfit or that You simply would like images of the outfit itself?

I provide wardrobe and supply the Model with an image or close proximity of prior or they send Me one of something they like.

FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
I think it would depend on the context in which the Model is viewing the request. 

Are they assuming You want pictures of them wearing the outfit or that You simply would like images of the outfit itself?

I provide wardrobe and supply the Model with an image or close proximity of prior or they send Me one of something they like.

I did ask for "a selfie of the outfit" in this case.
That would be my personal preference:  *I* want to be the judge of whether the model looks good in a particular outfit, not them. Seems like models have odd tastes sometimes.

You think it will go better if I only ask for a photo of the outfit?
It's not as useful that way though...

Philip Brown wrote:
Seems like models have odd tastes sometimes.

Which is one of the reasons I prefer to supply Wardrobe,  it provides greater control over the image.

To answer Your question I honestly don't know but I do like Todd's perspective.

Todd Meredith wrote:
Brush it off and make great images with another, more cooperative model who wont just plan on grabbing whatever is cleanest on the day of the shoot to cram in a bag.

FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
Which is one of the reasons I prefer to supply Wardrobe,  it provides greater control over the image.

yes, lovely.... in theory. Given unlimited budget and time.
Sadly, I have neither

If i were to do wardrobe, I would be really, REALLY picky about it.
Which would require either hiring a pro.. or me spending 2 hours fiddling with the clothing before taking a single shot

Philip Brown wrote:
I did ask for "a selfie of the outfit" in this case.
That would be my personal preference:  *I* want to be the judge of whether the model looks good in a particular outfit, not them.

I wouldn't be surprised if at least a subset of models views this as some sort of fetishizing approach. Others might be perfectly fine with it. How you ask probably matters.
As always, if you struggle to find people who mesh with your approach, perhaps finding a different pool of people or otherwise changing your methods might be in order.

Philip Brown wrote:
I did ask for "a selfie of the outfit" in this case.
That would be my personal preference:  *I* want to be the judge of whether the model looks good in a particular outfit, not them. Seems like models have odd tastes sometimes.

You think it will go better if I only ask for a photo of the outfit?
It's not as useful that way though...

Go through her portfolio, check her references, decide if you trust her to be able to take care of her end of the shoot (hair, makeup, wardrobe, whatever youre expecting of her). If not book someone else. Everyone needs to be responsible for proper vetting of who they work with, if you keep running into models with bad taste then you're not paying enough attention to their past work or asking other photographers about their experiences with those models

Most of us arent sending random selfies all dressed up to people who may or may not even confirm a shoot with us

Philip Brown wrote:
yes, lovely.... in theory. Given unlimited budget and time.
Sadly, I have neither

If i were to do wardrobe, I would be really, REALLY picky about it.
Which would require either hiring a pro.. or me spending 2 hours fiddling with the clothing before taking a single shot

I dont think spending 2 hours fiddling with the clothing is really a productive idea ( or respectful of the model )

Either the Fashion Fits the Model or it doesnt - if its only 1 size too large that can be fixed with a couple pins in the back ...If its 1 size too small - that may work for some glamoury shots ...Otherwise forget it

Either the Fashion looks Good on the Model or Not . Models/ People in general generallly learn what looks good on them ( and what conforms to the style of the day ) through our socialization - but not always ...The Big exception to this of course is the young ( or ineperienced ) model who has never worn high fashion before

Either the Model prioritizes Fashion for Her ( or his ) own wardrobe or doesnt .... I have known young women who have no interest in modelling ( outside of selfies ) who possess great wardrobes - as I have known successful Agency Models who travel the world with simply a couple suitcases of the essentials ....

But I will tell You as a Fellow Photographer - Its Very Challenging for most of Us to properly Style a Shoot ( beyond the basics ) on our own

Good Stylists are rare and in demand which of course means they will charge

Sometimes working an emerging Designer can work well though ( see my Avatar )

Todd Meredith wrote:
Don't sweat it, Phil.  There are people like that model in all walks of life.  The smallest request to make everyone's life a bit more convenient is like asking for a kidney.  Heaven forbid they'd have to put some effort into the collaborative process.  I had an MUA ask me, "Don't you trust me?" When I asked to see some previous work in a certain timeframe she professed to be familiar with doing.  My answer was simply, "No problem, I know another MUA.  Thanks for your time."  Don't want my money, oh well!  Others do.

Brush it off and make great images with another, more cooperative model who wont just plan on grabbing whatever is cleanest on the day of the shoot to cram in a bag.

Yeah, I agree with Todd here.  Just brush it off and move on to the next model.  I know it Kida sucks you were looking forward to the shoot and had invested some time, but at least it didn't get to the point where she showed up and nothing worked.  Had a model one time show up, after I told her about the wardrobe for the shoot, which she supplied and she said it wouldn't work, AFTER she showed up.  Yeah, that sucked too.  I think we've all been there.

Laura UnBound wrote:
Everyone needs to be responsible for proper vetting of who they work with, if you keep running into models with bad taste then you're not paying enough attention to their past work or asking other photographers about their experiences with those models

Most of us arent sending random selfies all dressed up to people who may or may not even confirm a shoot with us

Except this wasnt random. She approached ME, and her portfolio is small.
Eh, oh well. I guess it will remain small :-}

On a side topic "May not even confirm a shoort with us"  ..
You make it sound like there's a problem with photographers flaking on models.
Um,. what? :-D

Philip Brown wrote:
You make it sound like there's a problem with photographers flaking on models.
Um,. what? :-D

Photographers are just as guilty of it as models can be. Same as MUAs, designers... any role in the creative team can be flakey depending on your luck (or lack thereof). Photographers are in no way immune to this and on a pedestal of perfection.

Garry k wrote:

I dont think spending 2 hours fiddling with the clothing is really a productive idea ( or respectful of the model )

Either the Fashion Fits the Model or it doesnt - if its only 1 size too large that can be fixed with a couple pins in the back ...If its 1 size too small - that may work for some glamoury shots ...Otherwise forget it

Either the Fashion looks Good on the Model or Not . Models/ People in general generallly learn what looks good on them ( and what conforms to the style of the day ) through our socialization - but not always ...The Big exception to this of course is the young ( or ineperienced ) model who has never worn high fashion before

Either the Model prioritizes Fashion for Her ( or his ) own wardrobe or doesnt .... I have known young women who have no interest in modelling ( outside of selfies ) who possess great wardrobes - as I have known successful Agency Models who travel the world with simply a couple suitcases of the essentials ....

But I will tell You as a Fellow Photographer - Its Very Challenging for most of Us to properly Style a Shoot ( beyond the basics ) on our own

Good Stylists are rare and in demand which of course means they will charge

Sometimes working an emerging Designer can work well though ( see my Avatar )

I fiddled with a model to select which lingerie to wear.   

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I fiddled with a model to select which lingerie to wear.   

So can we call you a fiddler from now on ?

Andrew Bruce wrote:
I guarantee the model is thinking you want her to MODEL the outfits, creep style, for her before the shoot.

Yep.

I get what you are asking though, you want to literally see just the outfit laid out to match the colors to your studio.

That is easily accomplished without the model actually wearing the outfits in pre-shoot polaroids.

One time I did have questions about some of the wardrobe the model wanted to model in. I asked for some simple snapshots of the clothes laid out on the floor or bed. She happily complied and the snaps did the trick.

Garry k wrote:

So can we call you a fiddler from now on ?

I was using your terminology.

Nachtzehren wrote:

Photographers are just as guilty of it as models can be. Same as MUAs, designers... any role in the creative team can be flakey depending on your luck (or lack thereof). Photographers are in no way immune to this and on a pedestal of perfection.

I have had more MUA flake than models.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
Let it go, really let it go!!!! It is too easy to be misunderstood for one thing. It also comes across as a "control freak" move, not a good early impression. It does not matter who approached who, attempting to micro manage a first shoot is just going to reduce the number of shoots you do, precluding potential long term possibilities (as well as short term experience).

If you are hiring a model and want them to wear a particular piece, buy it in their size, pay them their rate. Having your way is not free, trade is a collaboration. Most people take terrrible selfies, if a model sends you a horrible photo of her in an outfit how does that help you? You are assuming a willingess to comply AND a skillset that may or may not exist.

If you are shooting trade, relax and think long term. My opening trade shoot offer with any model I want to work with is usually booked in a more or less public place and I ask that the model wear something they like and bring a thing or two such as hat, scarf, gloves etc. At that point I don't know what they have in their wardrobe and I don't need to know. You are gambling your time instead of paying a model, that's the price of admission. It is also an opportunity to learn and none of us should ever stop learning. It takes a pretty elevated status to be able to call the shots for a test (which is what professionals do, they don't shoot TF in the sense that MM tends towards).

That first shoot is sort of my version of "let's meet for coffee" except we go right to work and start shooting instead of sitting and talking. If it goes well and we shoot again, that is the time we will plan together to shoot something more elaborate - after trust is established and we are both comfortable working together.

These were all first shoots and improvised as we went. I learned a great deal with each shoot and we both got images for our ports. That is why we TF.
https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/44588413
https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/44804853
https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/44804957

Yep sounds good.

Except for me, with travel and setup time, every 2 hour shoot entails 5 hours of my time. I do not wish to have that much of a blind investment, so part of the time I will insist on a 'coffee meet' first.

Andrew Bruce wrote:
I guarantee the model is thinking you want her to MODEL the outfits, creep style, for her before the shoot.

I get what you are asking though, you want to literally see just the outfit laid out to match the colors to your studio.

Or to see if the outfit is anything you would want to shoot.

On a couple of occasions a model has asked me to come over and rummage through their closet to pick out something.

Possibly not the smartest move with another photographer on the part of the model.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
That first shoot is sort of my version of "let's meet for coffee" except we go right to work and start shooting instead of sitting and talking. If it goes well and we shoot again, that is the time we will plan together to shoot something more elaborate - after trust is established and we are both comfortable working together.

I like that idea.
For future "collab" stuff, I'll treat the first one as a throwaway, and get more serious on a second one.

Philip Brown wrote:

I like that idea.
For future "collab" stuff, I'll treat the first one as a throwaway, and get more serious on a second one.

I don't do a preshoot "shoot" as it is just unorganized. If you can't get a wardrobe stylist, most models will happily send you photos of the clothes. Making them spend 5 minutes for each outfit to put on and takeoff and try take an okay photo is asking for a great investment of time, when it is not needed.

That's why they are dropping you. You coming across as inefficient, time wasting.

I have plenty of models email me photos of outfits and wardrobe stylists also email me with photos of the jewelery as well. Imagine if I said: "For the six looks, please photograph yourself in them."  Or designers! That would end things quick.

Try and think of how you're impacting their valuable time and you should then rock in that department.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
I've had people ask me for cell phone snapshots of my face and body from various angles, holding a sign with the date on it in front of me. It's not even that unusual to get requests for full front, both sides, back and face from various angles with hair up, down, etc. People don't always believe what they see in a portfolio, even if you have a lot of photos and they were shot by a variety of individuals.

I'd guess that, if I shot in clothing more, people would want cellphone snaps of outfits more often as well.

I tend to believe that models look like their photos, as long as the photos are recent, aren't overly photoshopped, etc. In fact, sometimes I can see what a model COULD look like with good makeup, lighting, etc.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
holding a sign with the date on it in front of me.

IMO, that goes beyond basic precautions and edging into mistrust and even a bit of paranoia.

Orca Bay Images wrote:
IMO, that goes beyond basic precautions and edging into mistrust and even a bit of paranoia.

Those requests started happening more often after I got up into my late 20s. They were extremely rare when I was younger. The sign thing doesn't happen often, but general over zealous requests for cell phone pics prior to booking isn't particularly unusual anymore.

I really think some of it is due to the fact that I'm rather baby faced, and my body has sometimes been referred to as "nubile" looking. In daily life it's not uncommon for people to mistake me for a high school kid, and I still weigh the same as I did in high school. But, I'm a bit older for a model, so someone sees that I have a softer-looking face and extremely small breasts, and they have a hard time believing the photos are current. I also change my hairstyle a lot.

I'm sure the same thing happens when people are seeking accurate representations of models to schedule, and tend to expect one thing, but see another in the images. They assume they're being duped somehow, if they're the type of people who are prone to extreme skepticism.

All things considered, I see why people do it - but it can come across as over zealous. Obviously, not everyone has these reactions,  but a handful of people do. When I'm planning a trip, it's not unusual to send out 30-50 emails per day to various people, reaching out to make contacts and bookings - so models who earn income are talking to a TON of people, day in and day out. Out of any decent sized groups, you're going to make contact with a few who are super intense about certain things.

That being said, it's amazing how much value Americans place on boobs.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
I've had people ask me for cell phone snapshots of my face and body from various angles, holding a sign with the date on it in front of me.

It's traditional to hold a current newspaper. A sign is not proof.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
That being said, it's amazing how much value Americans place on boobs.

It's our way of keeping abreast of current events.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
That being said, it's amazing how much value Americans place on boobs.

The cup size isn't what's important. More important is whether they're natural (or not obviously augmented) and proportionate to the rest of the body (and preferably somewhat perky)..

Some models would look fine with A, B or C cups. On others, largish C cups would be excess boobage. And so on. Every model is different (which is a good thing).

Orca Bay Images wrote:

It's our way of keeping abreast of current events.

Ahahaha

Camerosity wrote:
I tend to believe that models look like their photos, as long as the photos are recent, aren't overly photoshopped, etc. In fact, sometimes I can see what a model COULD look like with good makeup, lighting, etc.

And how do you know that the photos are recent? The only thing you know is the date it was uploaded to MM, not the date it was actually taken

Eye of the World wrote:
And how do you know that the photos are recent? The only thing you know is the date it was uploaded to MM, not the date it was actually taken

Sometimes I'll check with a photographer with whom a model has worked (especially if I know one or more of them) and maybe even a model I know in the same geographical area (if it isn't a megalopolis like NYC or LA). I've never met a model who looked significantly different in person than she looks in her more recent (or more recently uploaded) photos.

Well, there was one model who had cut herself numerous on her arms, and the marks were very difficult (for me) to Photoshop out. I pretty much kept her arms in shadow or in a way that the cuts were hidden.

Most of them come from the Midwest, the South or the Southwest, where I know a lot of photographers and models.

But you're right. I am definitely top trusting of models (but much less trusting of boyfriend/"escorts"). Maybe I should start insisting on a Skype call. lol

Philip Brown wrote:
I'm trying to be a bit more prepared and organized for shoots.
I work with the wardrobe the models have on hand.
So, of late, I've been asking them to provide pics of the wardrobe they plan to bring before the shoot.
A surprising number of them have flaked once I ask them to do this.
The most recent:

A model approached ME, for a collab.
After some back and forth, planning, I asked her for some pics of her planned wardrobe.
Her: "Oh, don't worry, I've never had any complaints"
Me: "I'd still like to make the best match between wardrobe and location. Its not a rush or anything, but I'd still like some wardrobe pics before doing a shoot"
Her: "I'll just find someone else"

???

Knowing the full details of wardrobe before a shoot, seems like just a smart and sensible thing to me.
Is this somehow outlandish behaviour??

I also ask for pics of wardrobe in advance. If the model can't show it to me then I tell them I won't be shooting with them. If I want to do an athletic style shoot, the last thing I want is the model to show up wearing a dress. I always tell the models what look I want and I make sure they show me wardrobe way in advance. I also want to make sure the color of the outfit works with the location background and with the model's skin complexion. Models usually understand better after I explain all the reasons why I need to see the outfits.

FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
Any Photographer worth their weight plans or wants to know a look ahead of time,  unless they're shooting Senior portraits.

Even when shooting senior portraits, I will often try to get an idea about what a student will be wearing for just this same reason.  I have several areas on my property that are set up for shooting, all with different features and know of numerous local places we can go that are nearby, too, for variety.  When someone says they prefer a more casual look to their images,  will walk them through those places so that they have an idea of what's there or at least show them images of the places that are close by.  Knowing the scenery often sparks ideas in the minds of those modeling, so it can work both ways.  I've found that that being able to offer a variety brings in more business and results in happier clients.

Herman Surkis wrote:

Or to see if the outfit is anything you would want to shoot.

On a couple of occasions a model has asked me to come over and rummage through their closet to pick out something.

Possibly not the smartest move with another photographer on the part of the model.

True.

What I do to avoid all that drama is I simply pick out outfits I think would compliment their character and figure, maybe 3 or so, have them pick one, and I get the outfit for them. Done and done.