Mark Salo wrote:
All of your talk about the Covid panic, respect, chaperones and not publishing just emphasizes the negativity of working with you. And this is a point of some disagreement, but I think that crediting your models shows your appreciation and helps them to network.

that was my first thought too, after reading the profile

Wild Art,
In regards to your profile:
No model cares about how long you've been shooting. Your work speaks for itself.
If you allow a model to bring a guest, don't make requirements for that guest regarding their gender or relation.
Just because you've had your Covid Vaccine doesnt mean you're "safe to shoot with".
It just means you're less likely to suffer from symptoms when you get infected. It doesnt protect someone else directly. You can do your own research or consult a medical professional about that.
...but your profile would benefit from keeping it simple and positive.
Maybe just state what your goals are by being on this site and who you want to network with to create what kind of art.
Dont try to resolve any issues or overshare.

Best of luck!

Wild Art wrote:
Hi everyone,

I have had this heartbreaking year where attempts to book shoots have fallen apart. I have been approached by one gal at least a half dozen times just to have her flake on the shoot. (I told her very politely I was done working with her.)

Fool Me once.......

I believe in second chances but no way do they get a third, fourth, fifth or sixth.

Keep moving.

Wild Art wrote:
Hi everyone,

I have had this heartbreaking year where attempts to book shoots have fallen apart. I have been approached by one gal at least a half dozen times just to have her flake on the shoot. (I told her very politely I was done working with her.) Another gal flaked on me while I was in Canada which is a thirteen hour drive for me. I was there for other business but still...

I am really conscientious of model's safety and personal comfort levels. I recommend bringing a chaperone every time and in my profile. I am not pushy but sometimes I think that when models flake it makes the photographer confused and they can appear pushy.

I have very few people to work with in my area and as it is in the Bible Belt it is near impossible.

I have pulled my social media account down at this point and moved to just shooting landscape photography.

Am I the only one experiencing this or is it the new reality?

Things are not much better in the UK at the moment, added to Covid 19 there are currently a lot of problems with inappropriate or abusive behaviour by photographers during shoots and organised criminal gangs trying to take over the modelling scene, so many models are now quite cautious, you can't really blame them.

Camera Buff wrote:
The era that propelled so many photographers and models to superstardom started to evaporate with the rise of the internet (and in more recent times Covid-19 hasn’t helped).

The new reality has dramatically impacted the careers of many of todays best and fairest photographers and models.

Be thankful for the opportunities to photograph models that do come your way, but don’t focus your expectations on to models. Remember, there are always so many other wonderful subjects to photograph.

Thanks! I was wondering if that was the case and you confirmed what I figured. This has been my focus as of the last year and a half.

JSouthworth wrote:

Things are not much better in the UK at the moment, added to Covid 19 there are currently a lot of problems with inappropriate or abusive behaviour by photographers during shoots and organised criminal gangs trying to take over the modelling scene, so many models are now quite cautious, you can't really blame them.

Absolutely. It's scary as a photographer too.

profile wrote:
...avid interest in all types of photography including portraiture, glamour, implied, bodypaint, commercial, and so on.

Poor grammar.  Why the misuse of the ellipsis?  Why not, "I have an avid interest ...."  Why the redundancy: "avid interest in all types of photography;" and then you say "and so on."  If you have an avid interest in all types of photography, then why list specific types?

profile wrote:
AND BEST OF ALL: I have had my Covid Vaccine so safe to shoot with. We appreciate prompt replies, professionalism, and respect on shoots.

"BEST OF ALL?"  There is no need to say that, and it doesn't need to be shouted (all caps).  Consider if you really want to claim that the remainder of that text is the "best of all" and what that may imply.

You can inform others that you have been vaccinated and request that they are vaccinated, but being vaccinated doesn't mean you are safe to shoot with.  There is a broader implication as to what being safe to shoot with would mean to a model. 

Also, if you are making a statement about being vaccinated, are you making a political statement or judgmental statement, as opposed to providing a bit of relative data?  I included that I am vaccinated in my bio and I state that they should be vaccinated as well.  I don't care if they have a different political view and refuse to shoot with me because of my stance on vaccination.  You should be prepared for vaccination comments to have consequences.

Do you shoot as a team with someone?  Why do "we" appreciate prompt replies, professionalism, and respect on shoots, instead of I?  Furthermore, by stating that you appreciate prompt replies, professionalism, and respect on shoots, are you being demanding?  Are you implying that a model must reply promptly or not at all?  What time frame do you consider would qualify as being prompt?  Stating that you will behave professionally on a shoot has a different connotation then saying that you appreciate that they act professionally.  If you have to suggest that they act professionally, why are you hiring them?  You want someone that acts professionally without it being a suggestion, don't you?

profile wrote:
Chaperone: Please feel free (highly encouraged) to bring a chaperone with you on any shoots but make it someone of the same sex please and no significant others unless they are shooting too. You should do this with all your shoots anyways.

"Highly encourage?"  Why?  Do you like to have multiple victims because it is a greater challenge?  "Make it someone the same sex?"  Gender might be a better word choice then sex, but still, it seems awkward.  You could have made that much more clear and concise: "You are welcome to bring a same gender companion to the shoot with you."   I understand your reluctance to have significant others on the set, but you invited them to bring an escort and then start putting on those limitations as to whom the escort may be, and you have eliminated the person who is most likely to be her go to choice, including a same gender significant other.

You used chaperone instead of escort.  I guess that is better, but why not a word that doesn't imply they are juvenile or that you are dangerous? 

"You should do this with all your shoots anyways."  Why?  Are you her father?  Are you telling her what is professionalism?  If you want to shoot with experienced models, then why are you telling them what is professional behavior?  Or, are you trying to appear caring and concerned to models that are not experienced?  The less experienced models are the ones most likely to flake. 

Are you telling them that you perceive the rest of us to be dangerous?  If every guy she has already worked with was dangerous, in your eyes, and she did not feel that way, then aren't you implying that you feel, in your heart, that you are dangerous and that she must bring along another person? 

The statements, "You should do this with all your shoots anyways" and "highly encourage" are condescending, paternalistic, and insulting. 

profile wrote:
I have been shooting for nearly 40 years and started off on 35mm film. I enjoy the process and the artistic component more than I enjoy social media so most stuff doesn't get published by me. --I leave that to my clients.

I like the dramatic scenes behind the models that I can't see because they are too dark. Does having 40 years of experience give you credibility? Or do your images give you credibility?

Most stuff doesn't get published by you, which means some does.  What does get published?

Models aren't your clients.  You are their client.  You have already told them they aren't going to be published if they work with you.  That eliminates an incentive to work with you if they have hopes of getting tear sheets and being published.  Getting posted in social media is not really being published.


Wouldn't 'being professional' include a well written bio?  If you appreciate professionalism, then shouldn't you be displaying professionalism?  Don't underestimate the models on this site.  Many models are very intelligent and very well educated.  They are the individuals that you want to work with.  They are professional, reliable, dedicated and talented. They notice when someone writes stuff that is not properly punctuated or grammatically reasonable.  Can someone that doesn't write a convincing bio, or a bio full of grammatical errors, be taken seriously?

I hope you have better results going forward.  Try working with traveling models.  They are well worth the cost.

Wild Art wrote:

Thanks! I was wondering if that was the case and you confirmed what I figured. This has been my focus as of the last year and a half.

Your landscape picture on the front page of your website is remarkably beautiful ... congratulations!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I recall a former female member who is a published pro.  This is a woman who works with agency talent in NY.   This is a name most here would know.  When she offered free test shoots to models here some flaked.   I guess her grammar turned them off.   OP, I looked at your website and I saw several well done images and at least two show stoppers.   Always remember this.  Never make or take anything personal.   Focus on those models who have shown up and know you're doing something right because some are following through.   Does paying help, sometimes but sites like these are full of unreliable folks on both sides of the camera.

  Years past a local model flaked on me several times when she finally showed she confessed she didn't have a stable place to live.   Which was confirmed by the two huge bags full of clothes she had and her laptop, etc.   Get what I'm driving at?   Her not coming the other times had nothing to do with me, my work or poor grammar.   Try this on the next model who comes out.   Ask her why she showed.   I remember a former commercial model told me I sounded like fun on the phone.

Thanks Tony. That's a really good point. I had taken that into consideration but in the end it became obvious they were not being considerate of my time.

E H wrote:
Just keep putting one foot ahead of the other, somethings take time. Put time into your craft getting better and better. Keep trying and don't let things bring you down. If a model doesn't show, find another one around or shoot something else,, there is always something to shoot no matter where you are.

Just keep at it...
The only thing else I would say is money talks and bullshit walks,,, even in the Bible Belt, so you might want to look at paying/paying a little more,,, if you want something done.

ALL THE BEST...

Thanks very much!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
... Odds are its not the OP's work, grammar or his written profile...
He doesn't have the often corny glamour shots that many models appreciate...

His MM portfolio and profile today are different from what they were when he posted.

I for one, assumed that he uses his MM portfolio and profile when approaching models.

Mark Salo wrote:
His MM portfolio and profile today are different from what they were when he posted.

I for one, assumed that he uses his MM portfolio and profile when approaching models.

Going to push back on his MM portfolio.   Its largely the same and the avatar he used at first was beautiful as another member mentioned.   Your saying he only had ONE good shot was wrong and wasn't helpful.  I've worked as an assistant for several Chicago fashion and commercial photographers and on multiple occasions agency models didn't come for tests and paid work.  Years ago when I visited NY I met an Elite agency model.   This I knew because she had her book out on the train.   We spoke and exchanged numbers and she called to set up a shoot the next day but my demonic ex-wife put a stop to the session.   This was a woman who hadn't seen my work.

So why did she want to shoot?  We talked about Avedon and Newton and the state of fashion.  I said this to the OP but going forward ask models why they came out.  So many factors are at play and your written profile or 'bad' lighting in a few shots or that you mention you've been vaccinated aren't part of the equation.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Going to push back on his MM portfolio.   Its largely the same and the avatar he used at first was beautiful as another member mentioned.   Your saying he only had ONE good shot was wrong and wasn't helpful.  I've worked as an assistant for several Chicago fashion and commercial photographers and on multiple occasions agency models didn't come for tests and paid work.  Years ago when I visited NY I met an Elite agency model.   This I knew because she had her book out on the train.   We spoke and exchanged numbers and she called to set up a shoot the next day but my demonic ex-wife put a stop to the session.   This was a woman who hadn't seen my work.

So why did she want to shoot?  We talked about Avedon and Newton and the state of fashion.  I said this to the OP but going forward ask models why they came out.  So many factors are at play and your written profile or 'bad' lighting in a few shots or that you mention you've been vaccinated aren't part of the equation.

With all due Respect Tony - I think that in the world of Internet Modelling ( of which Real Word Agency Models can be a part of ) First Impressions are Vital . And those first impressions of a Photographer ( or a Model ) come from the Photos they have posted as well as their Bio

In my experience few younger Models( agency or not ) have known a lot about Real Fashion or Real Fashion Photography unless they have worked in that world - but of course the ones that have can offer some interesting  information . thoughts and insight

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Going to push back on his MM portfolio.   Its largely the same and the avatar he used at first was beautiful as another member mentioned.   Your saying he only had ONE good shot was wrong and wasn't helpful.  I've worked as an assistant for several Chicago fashion and commercial photographers and on multiple occasions agency models didn't come for tests and paid work.  Years ago when I visited NY I met an Elite agency model.   This I knew because she had her book out on the train.   We spoke and exchanged numbers and she called to set up a shoot the next day but my demonic ex-wife put a stop to the session.   This was a woman who hadn't seen my work.

So why did she want to shoot?  We talked about Avedon and Newton and the state of fashion.  I said this to the OP but going forward ask models why they came out.  So many factors are at play and your written profile or 'bad' lighting in a few shots or that you mention you've been vaccinated aren't part of the equation.

Your logic is faulty, Tony.  You go through a laundry list of possible causes and dismiss those you don't like, without evidence of them being invalid. They being invalid, is only your opinion.

You mention in your post about agency models flaking.  To hear it from guys that shoot agency models, they are reliable and motivated, yet you have experienced them flaking.  Why then would you not expect a greater variety of reasons for flaking from internet models or those that saw a flyer hanging in a store?

I will not dispute that Idaho Falls does not have a lot of MM models to serve as opportunities for a photographer. Therefore, it is all the more important they put their best efforts forward.  A model with a minimal level of education may not notice conflicting statements or bad grammar.  I suspect a model with a better education would.  Will she bolt because of the grammar?  Who knows.  But, if poor writing is eliminated as a factor, then we certainly know that it won't be a problem.

A while back, someone criticized one of my forum posts because I used the wrong last letter in a word.  I spelled the word two other times correctly, though I was accused of making the error thrice.  After that, the guy went into my bio looking for anything he could use. He found an error, which I then corrected. Spellin’ had nothin’ to do with the discussion. From that experience and others, I fail to understand how you can justify using subpar communication skills and yet expect good results. Your dismay that I would point out credible problems (though I only pointed out one specific punctuation/grammar error, where there were many) is misplaced consternation.

You offer up stories which you have told before.  We cannot examine any aspect of those scenarios, except for that which you have told us.  I am confident, however, that if your wife interfered with a shoot, the model didn't flake.  What your wife did was on you, not the model.  The elite photographer from NYC may have also inadvertently encouraged the flakes you mentioned.  Was her offer or were her discussions conducted in such a way that the photographer intimidated the models out of showing up?  A possibility, no?  It really isn't a reasonable argument to pull scenarios out of the air as counterpoints when you are the only one that got to examine any facts or conjecture.  The rest of us looked at what was before us in this thread, under the weight of our own experiences, we made evaluations.  If your experiences count, then so do ours.  However, when you produce scenarios that represent additional possibilities which exist outside of the bio and photos at hand, and which do not counter other possibilities, you prove nothing.

I have a shot in my portfolio that I really like.  I know that it is technically flawed.  A photographer once liked the photo. I contacted him to inquire as to why he liked it since it is technically flawed.  The answer was that the emotion the photo creates, outweighed the technical flaws. It is not in my port because it is a superb example of my work.  It is there because I like it, others like it and I hope others that see it, will look further because of it.  You are right, in my opinion: the OP has more than one photo that is good for one reason or another.  He may also chose to keep the ones that are technically flawed for a myriad of reasons. But, his question was, “What am I doing wrong?”  Not, “What can I get away with and still have models want to work with me.”

You are sorely mistaken if you think mentioning being vaccinated in Idaho Falls could not possibly have an impact given the angst and anger among those that believe the virus is fake. I lived in central Idaho a while back and I now have a neighbor that has family near Boise.  She visits frequently and I see the mindset in her and other people, that would shut someone down for mentioning the virus as if it was real.

It is presumptuous of you to suggest that the OP ask models why they did show up, without giving due consideration to the possibility that we have asked models that question ourselves.  There is also the possibility that we have asked models what kinds of red flags they see when dealing with other people, and what they have learned about judging the character of a person before they show up.  Their experience allows them to develop correlations and observations regarding bios and portfolios.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Jesus... you guys overthink everything.  The OP has only been here since April of this year.   He has no MM credited models.  He's not in an area with a lot of MM models either.   So what is he doing wrong?   If you guys really think poor grammar or a word misspelled is stopping models from working with him your delusional.   I've worked in HR in the past and people we hired, who came in for the interview, drug and criminal background would just not show up for their first day of work.  People flake.   Stop making it about you're doing or saying because in general  it usually has ZERO to do with you.

Jesus ... you under think everything?  The OP has been here since April and he hasn't gotten any MM model credits?  Does that mean he hasn't had one single MM shoot in an city where the models could name their price?  Not one single model in that area has it together enough to come to suitable terms with him and show up to work?   My God, Tony!  You are right!  It must be the model's fault!  Every last one of them is a flake, and it has (almost) zero to do with the photographer.    Or is he not making suitable offers?  No, that can't be, because then it wouldn't be the model's fault.

Yes, Tony, models don't show up because they abuse drugs and have criminal backgrounds and models flake for reasons that have nothing to do with the OP.  Nothing at all.  Does that change what his posted question was?  "What am I doing wrong."  You would have us tell him he was doing nothing wrong when there were deficiencies?  You would have us lay all the blame on every model?

It is no wonder that you think success is not relevant to communication skills!  You said, "Stop making it about [what] you're doing or saying because[,] in general[,] it usually has ZERO to do with you."  Even you don't believe what you are saying!  In that sentence, you used two qualifiers that left room for the problem to be the result of what the photographer is doing.  "In general" means most, but not all of the time.  "Usually" means often, but not all of the time.  Effectively, you have allowed that some models would be willing to say, "Next" after reading a poorly constructed introduction. 

Now you are going to mischaracterize and minimize what was said so you can use belittling tactics as a discussion tool?  According to another poster, when I came into the thread, the OP had already cut his bio down.  Was what remained a good bio with a simple spelling mistake and poor grammar?  Was it a poorly written bio with multiple mistakes in spelling and grammar which inadequately articulated why a model should work with him?  I dissected the thing.  I did not make a generalized statement.  I told him what and why.  Are you going to boil it down to: "If you guys really think poor grammar or a word misspelled is stopping models from working with him your delusional," when it clearly was not just a spelling error, and poor grammar, but poor communication.  I also touched on photo quality, but others covered that and there was no need to pile on.  Nor did you claim he had a stellar port.  You said there was more than one good pic.  Thus, leaving plenty of room to conclude that you recognized some images weren't good.

You offer flailing rebuttals to avoid addressing if he should leave poor photos and grammar in his portfolio and bio, when he is having trouble getting people to work with him?  You would rather blame the models then have him improve his presentation- the one thing he can control.

You are telling us that you interview and hire people with histories of drug abuse and criminal activity, and you are surprised that people don't show up for the first day of work?! Not that I object to giving people a second chance.  But, the OP stressed professionalism in his profile.  If he said he was trying to hire people with criminal histories and histories of drug abuse, I wouldn't have said a damn thing to him about his bio.  It was adequately written for people with said histories.

   

OP, please don't take my discussion with Tony personally.  The discussion is more broad than your page.

Wild Art wrote:

Absolutely. It's scary as a photographer too.

It may be a little scary, but fear is not the right response. Selective and controlled aggression towards the people causing the problems is the correct response, when on the individual level these people are cowards who try to use social structures or institutions as cover for criminal behaviour.

JSouthworth wrote:
Things are not much better in the UK at the moment, added to Covid 19 there are currently a lot of problems with inappropriate or abusive behaviour by photographers during shoots and organised criminal gangs trying to take over the modelling scene, so many models are now quite cautious, you can't really blame them.

I'm a UK model photographer and quite frankly JSouthworth's experience (I assume it's not just pure fantasy or wild conjecture) is in no way reflective of mine, nor I imagine of virtually everyone else here, both models and photographers. UK model photography attracts the occasional creepy scum bag (sometimes readily identified by the presence of a negative reference left by a model on their profile) but no more so than anywhere else. 'Organised criminal gangs trying to take over the modelling scene' - well I'm absolutely dumbfounded by that statement.

The UK amateur modelling scene is quite small and anyone who's been around for a while will know everyone else pretty well too, either through shooting with them or through networking. Any organised criminal gangs taking over the place would stand out like a sore thumb. It just ain't happening, at least not beyond whatever 'bubble' it is that JSouthworth inhabits.

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea of what might be happening over here!

Joe Tomasone wrote:
Let's stay on topic.   

Further personal insults, attacks, or any other boorish behavior will be looked upon quite disfavorably.

It would appear that the OP 'Wild Art' has already looked upon this behaviour and has decided to leave the Forums and Model Mayhem. Let's hope at some point he returns and the behaviour leaves.

Camera Buff wrote:
It would appear that the OP 'Wild Art' has already looked upon this behaviour and has decided to leave the Forums and Model Mayhem. Let's hope at some point he returns and the behaviour leaves.

To answer the original question, I don't think he was doing anything wrong, to judge from his avatar image. That looks to be a pretty good picture.