Alexandra Vincent wrote:
This used to be a very model-friendly site in general. That started to change around 2015 or so. Today, there are still plenty of models here, but few communicate on the boards, or use many of the features. The culture, for awhile, became overtly hostile towards models. That has seemingly died down, thankfully, but the site overall has not recovered.

^^^

Us professionals are not valued anymore. Photographers pick an expensive hobby and do not understand that hiring a professional makes their portfolio better and their creativity and job easier.  And Covid straight up murdered our jobs. I don't see this recovering for a while and MM will suffer.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
This used to be a very model-friendly site in general. That started to change around 2015 or so. Today, there are still plenty of models here, but few communicate on the boards, or use many of the features. The culture, for awhile, became overtly hostile towards models. That has seemingly died down, thankfully, but the site overall has not recovered.

As a member who joined in 2014 I am dismayed and also mystified by the assertion that MM had become "overtly hostile towards models." I sincerely could not imagine a dumber environment for photographers and models to find each other than that. Could you elaborate?

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
This used to be a very model-friendly site in general. That started to change around 2015 or so. Today, there are still plenty of models here, but few communicate on the boards, or use many of the features. The culture, for awhile, became overtly hostile towards models. That has seemingly died down, thankfully, but the site overall has not recovered.

QFT

Focuspuller wrote:
As a member who joined in 2014 I am dismayed and also mystified by the assertion that MM had become "overtly hostile towards models." I sincerely could not imagine a dumber environment for photographers and models to find each other than that. Could you elaborate?

I've been on MM since 2007, so I have an extensive understanding of how the site has shifted and changed over the years. Circa 2017 or so, the attitude on the forums was so negative towards models that a separate, private forum was created only for female models. People logged in as photographers can't even see its existence. This was so models could actually talk to each other on a board without being bullied by male photographers. I'm not joking. There's literally a forum that only female models can see when they log in. I can see it and comment when I log in as a model, but when I sign on to my photographer account, it doesn't appear to exist. But, it was far too little too late. Models were already becoming far less active on MM overall, and the message boards were starting to be seen as a hot bed of hatefulness and misogyny.

To provide a specific example, one of the larger problems was when someone posted a question asking for input from models. A slew of male photographers would pile onto the thread and answer the question. There might be one actual model who'd comment, then get attacked for expressing their experiences or thoughts. This was especially true in conversations about monetary compensation. It was just hostile. Sometimes people would even ask fairly intimate questions, such as how to go about completing a nude shoot while menstruating. Obviously, that's something pro nude models have to deal with regularly. It's not complicated or problematic if you have experience dealing with it, but it can be stressful for newbies. It's a question best answered by people who actually have monthly periods, but unfortunately, an entire gaggle of male photographers would start talking about it. They also loved to tell female models how they preferred hair to be groomed, and could become defensive over issues such as models' pubic hair, weight, even stuff like surgical scars. This resulted in a pretty unsavory environment for women especially, but really anyone who was looking to model. It was very scary and creepy to new models, who were just trying to build a portfolio and didn't want to be on a site where a bunch of guys were telling them what hairstyles they could and couldn't wear - on their heads or otherwise.

Some of that still goes on, I'm sure, but not as publicly it seems.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
I've been on MM since 2007, so I have an extensive understanding of how the site has shifted and changed over the years. Circa 2017 or so, the attitude on the forums was so negative towards models that a separate, private forum was created only for female models. People logged in as photographers can't even see its existence. This was so models could actually talk to each other on a board without being bullied by male photographers. I'm not joking. There's literally a forum that only female models can see when they log in. I can see it and comment when I log in as a model, but when I sign on to my photographer account, it doesn't appear to exist. But, it was far too little too late. Models were already becoming far less active on MM overall, and the message boards were starting to be seen as a hot bed of hatefulness and misogyny.

To provide a specific example, one of the larger problems was when someone posted a question asking for input from models. A slew of male photographers would pile onto the thread and answer the question. There might be one actual model who'd comment, then get attacked for expressing their experiences or thoughts. This was especially true in conversations about monetary compensation. It was just hostile. Sometimes people would even ask fairly intimate questions, such as how to go about completing a nude shoot while menstruating. Obviously, that's something pro nude models have to deal with regularly. It's not complicated or problematic if you have experience dealing with it, but it can be stressful for newbies. It's a question best answered by people who actually have monthly periods, but unfortunately, an entire gaggle of male photographers would start talking about it. They also loved to tell female models how they preferred hair to be groomed, and could become defensive over issues such as models' pubic hair, weight, even stuff like surgical scars. This resulted in a pretty unsavory environment for women especially, but really anyone who was looking to model. It was very scary and creepy to new models, who were just trying to build a portfolio and didn't want to be on a site where a bunch of guys were telling them what hairstyles they could and couldn't wear - on their heads or otherwise.

Some of that still goes on, I'm sure, but not as publicly it seems.

Thank you.

"...the attitude on the forums was so negative towards models that a separate, private forum was created only for female models."

I've heard about the models only forum and I think this is a good thing. The only reservation I would raise is the possibility of someone being accused, tried, and blackballed without the chance to defend.

"To provide a specific example, one of the larger problems was when someone posted a question asking for input from models. A slew of male photographers would pile onto the thread and answer the question. There might be one actual model who'd comment, then get attacked for expressing their experiences or thoughts."

I have witnessed this. It's sad and quite common, unfortunately. As to the other behaviors, the level of vetting MM conducts doesn't really prevent jerks from becoming members, sad to say. Thanks for hanging in there as long as you did in spite of it all.

Model Sarah wrote:
"... hiring a professional makes their portfolio better and their creativity and job easier."

Better? Speaking for myself, I wouldn't even HAVE a portfolio without professional models.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:

I've been on MM since 2007, so I have an extensive understanding of how the site has shifted and changed over the years. Circa 2017 or so, the attitude on the forums was so negative towards models that a separate, private forum was created only for female models. People logged in as photographers can't even see its existence. This was so models could actually talk to each other on a board without being bullied by male photographers. I'm not joking. There's literally a forum that only female models can see when they log in. I can see it and comment when I log in as a model, but when I sign on to my photographer account, it doesn't appear to exist. But, it was far too little too late. Models were already becoming far less active on MM overall, and the message boards were starting to be seen as a hot bed of hatefulness and misogyny.

To provide a specific example, one of the larger problems was when someone posted a question asking for input from models. A slew of male photographers would pile onto the thread and answer the question. There might be one actual model who'd comment, then get attacked for expressing their experiences or thoughts. This was especially true in conversations about monetary compensation. It was just hostile. Sometimes people would even ask fairly intimate questions, such as how to go about completing a nude shoot while menstruating. Obviously, that's something pro nude models have to deal with regularly. It's not complicated or problematic if you have experience dealing with it, but it can be stressful for newbies. It's a question best answered by people who actually have monthly periods, but unfortunately, an entire gaggle of male photographers would start talking about it. They also loved to tell female models how they preferred hair to be groomed, and could become defensive over issues such as models' pubic hair, weight, even stuff like surgical scars. This resulted in a pretty unsavory environment for women especially, but really anyone who was looking to model. It was very scary and creepy to new models, who were just trying to build a portfolio and didn't want to be on a site where a bunch of guys were telling them what hairstyles they could and couldn't wear - on their heads or otherwise.

Some of that still goes on, I'm sure, but not as publicly it seems.

I will admit, a lot of this behavior is why I chose to no longer be as active here as I had once been. I used to be extremely active on the forums. I have thousands of posts dating to the opening of this site. I am hardly thin skinned. I will add at that time this site became a bit of a meat market. I do not regret leaving. I actually found a lot of success moving off ModelMayhem and carving out a more well rounded modeling career in other venues. I am happy to see MM has improved some.

Modelphilia wrote:
I'm glad to see some of the older models are filtering back onto the site. Perhaps they will draw some others. I don't know of another site where there is at least the potential for finding models in, or coming to, one's location, so it's a shame that there are not more models using MM.

I was aware at the time of some of the past ridiculousness of the many male photographers who were answering models' questions to their peers. I think the worst sort were often the least talented, the most opinionated, and the least professional photographers on the site. That has largely disappeared at last, but then so have the models! I'd be curious to know from the models still using the site if they are seeing more activity on the "Models Only" forum.

Covid was the final blow it seems. I went from having multiple models working with me on February 15th, 2020, and having five more traveling models scheduled to do TFP work with me over following three months, to absolutely NOTHING –for nearly two years! Since then, there are far fewer models doing tours of Hawaii these days (maybe 3-5 models per month), and I have only shot with two MM models in the past year!

Any alternatives out there?

Honestly, I will probably be flamed for this. The models I am noticing who are posting and are new seem to be transgender. That is a very new development I haven't seen before. I have no opinions weather it is good or bad. So, please be kind folks. I know this is a touchy subject. But it was something interesting I noted. But a lot of the models I see posting are the fellow golden girls, as I call the 10-20 year veterans. So, it seems photographers are stuck with working with models who are 30 and older.

I was discussing more about the changes on MM in private tonight. One of the people I had a discussion commented in their job in arts/entertainment/Hollywood they are seeing much the same phenomenon. This person is in his 40's. Mentioned he is receiving endless job recruitment offers from other production companies. Even production companies he left years ago. he feels in demand. I also noticed in my neighborhood, all business seem short staffed still. It is as if half the population just vanished into thin air after March 17, 2020.

I agree I don't know another site like this. I do find it is extremely useful.

Samantha Grace wrote:
I also noticed in my neighborhood, all business seem short staffed still. It is as if half the population just vanished into thin air after March 17, 2020.

It's not your imagination.  And it's the case all over...

Between baby boomers that decided, all at once, to retire during the pandemic (a really big population "bump"), the number of people that died, obnoxious customers going after store staff, and people reconsidering how they work and whether they really want a job where you deal, in person, with the public...

I.E.  People changed their priorities during the pandemic, "en masse".

So, your perception that half the population (at least for front line staff that are dealing in person with the public) seemed to "vanish into thin air", is not far off.

And we still don't fully understand the longterm implications of just how much "work", and society itself, has fundamentally changed...

LightDreams wrote:

It's not your imagination.  And it's the case all over...

Between baby boomers that decided, all at once, to retire during the pandemic (a really big population "bump"), the number of people that died, obnoxious customers going after store staff, and people reconsidering how they work and whether they really want a job where you deal, in person, with the public...

I.E.  People changed their priorities during the pandemic, "en masse".

So, your perception that half the population (at least for front line staff that are dealing in person with the public) seemed to "vanish into thin air", is not far off.

And we still don't fully understand the longterm implications of just how much "work", and society itself, has fundamentally changed...

A change of priorities with shift the consciousness of a collective mass of population. In recent years the public has lost decency for sure. Living in LA I have seen often the behaviors in public setting in places like pharmacies and restaurants. So, I do not blame people who work in service based industries at all. It is interesting when the changes are effecting what people consider dream jobs. Even high paying creative jobs in film are seeing this.

Samantha Grace wrote:
I agree I don't know another site like this. I do find it is extremely useful.

Thanks for helping to add some life to these boards! It's good to be able to compare impressions and experiences.

If you do ever put your traveling-shoes back on and want some rural Hawaii experience to add to your trove, let me know. We have two active volcanoes going here at the moment, though this time I'm not directly affected yet, unlike both the 2014 and 2018 Kilauea eruptions. If you get curious, I can offer food and accommodations, in addition to a great introduction to our dance and music subcultures.

Keep on creating!