remerrill wrote:
You know... in my own mind I keep comming back to one issue...

We need more participants, we need more entries and more voters, we need a easy way to view the entries, we need an easy way to VOTE and it would solve a lot of issues if it were a blind vote system.

An easy case could be made that it is in the interest of MM to facilitate these improvements. With the improvements more page views, more advertizment views, increased site stats and ad revenue.

I say keep everything on-site, with the structure and safecaurds we need, MM can and should promote ALL of the competition/cretique threads... PotD, 18+ PotD, Concept otD... all of them and more, right at the top of our MM index/home page.

Except not everyone seems to want a site-wide contest. Let's face it, internet discussion forums and sub-forums (which is where this contest currently lives) foster concentrated groups of people with the same, or similar, interests. As such, all the forums-based contests are affected and influenced by personalities, familiarity, and perceptions. And all the forums-based contests will remain the domain and playground of a relatively small group of people... that's just a fact of internet life. Yes, some people are more savvy and adept at taking advantage of this fact, but another fact is that the "masses" will not come into the forums to play. If people want a site-wide contest that levels the playing field, AND retains the spirit and rules of the current one, then the steps are clear... at least to me. But as I already said, I don't believe everyone wants a site-wide contest. True, there are pros and cons to the new site-wide format, and yes there is stuff to do to make the system work better... but in the end, I personally would prefer to see all MM branded contests actually relate to the MM community at large, and not just serve a finite group of people and personalities in the forums.

Chris Keeling wrote:

Laura, this has already been talked about.  Would you consider GW Burns on the level of Aeric or the other guy?  (I don't know who Random is)  His models have entered his images and not gotten a single vote.

A very very good Glamour shooter without name appeal has no chance of consistent success in the 18+ thread because of the makeup of the regulars.  There is no diversity in the voter demographics and because of that the competition is losing players at an alarming rate.  You say what the voters like is what will win, but when the voters all like exactly the same thing all the time, and they exclude whole genre's that the majority of the website shoots in.....it's a recipe for disaster.  That is just Common Sense 101.

If you're ok with that it's your opinion, and that's ok......but don't talk about PotD competitions on the whole because this one has a different dynamic going on and the dynamics in the others don't apply to this one.  This one has specific problems that me and others are simply discussing to try to find a way to make it better.

I may not play in 18+, or post in this thread often, but don't confuse that with not knowing about the contest.  I follow it regularly, and would start participating again if I had the images that qualified in my portfolio.

I agree that increased participation would be good...it's always good when you can get more people into a contest, not to mention it exposes you to more people.

However, you keep mentioning image quality throughout your posts, and you say that your main focus is improving the contest and bringing in more players.  But by your mentioning repeatedly image quality you're implying a lot.  You're implying that people don't vote because an image is good, that they only follow lines of friendship or loyalty.  You're implying that winning images aren't as good as others or they have no merit.  You're implying that some of the players in the competition are undeserving, and well, how could any of their images garner votes because they're obviously bad and mean nothing to anyone.

If it's your concern to get more players in the competition, that's admirable and a great idea, I whole heartedly agree that more players is good for the competition.  But your repeated mention of image quality really puts to question what your real intention is.

Skydancer wrote:
the "masses" will not come into the forums to play. If people want a site-wide contest that levels the playing field, AND retains the spirit and rules of the current one, then the steps are clear... at least to me. But as I already said, I don't believe everyone wants a site-wide contest. True, there are pros and cons to the new site-wide format, and yes there is stuff to do to make the system work better... but in the end, I personally would prefer to see all MM branded contests actually relate to the MM community at large, and not just serve a finite group of people and personalities in the forums.

agreed.... MM does NOT have a "showcase image" format as does the dreaded OMP. It'd be a nice addition. That tag is bestowed by a very small selection committee. They do however, have regular sitewide contests with far more participation than what MM has. It'd be nice to build MM up to OMP's levels. No slam, just an observation.

Laura Ann Photography wrote:

I may not play in 18+, or post in this thread often, but don't confuse that with not knowing about the contest.  I follow it regularly, and would start participating again if I had the images that qualified in my portfolio.

I agree that increased participation would be good...it's always good when you can get more people into a contest, not to mention it exposes you to more people.

However, you keep mentioning image quality throughout your posts, and you say that your main focus is improving the contest and bringing in more players.  But by your mentioning repeatedly image quality you're implying a lot.  You're implying that people don't vote because an image is good, that they only follow lines of friendship or loyalty.  You're implying that winning images aren't as good as others or they have no merit.  You're implying that some of the players in the competition are undeserving, and well, how could any of their images garner votes because they're obviously bad and mean nothing to anyone.

If it's your concern to get more players in the competition, that's admirable and a great idea, I whole heartedly agree that more players is good for the competition.  But your repeated mention of image quality really puts to question what your real intention is.

Laura, you're looking for a fight.  I'm not going to give it to you.  Stop assuming you know what I mean and take my words at face value.

The competition is dominated by a group of people who participate in and like a specific genre.  More participation makes the voters and the winners more diverse.

Chris Keeling wrote:
It's interesting how the regular players are starting to circle the wagons and fight the suggestions being made to improve the contest.  Not a single suggestion being made is harmfull and all are helpfull, yet the regulars are fighting against the changes.

Exactly.

Laura Ann Photography wrote:

I may not play in 18+, or post in this thread often, but don't confuse that with not knowing about the contest.  I follow it regularly, and would start participating again if I had the images that qualified in my portfolio.

I agree that increased participation would be good...it's always good when you can get more people into a contest, not to mention it exposes you to more people.

However, you keep mentioning image quality throughout your posts, and you say that your main focus is improving the contest and bringing in more players.  But by your mentioning repeatedly image quality you're implying a lot.  You're implying that people don't vote because an image is good, that they only follow lines of friendship or loyalty.  You're implying that winning images aren't as good as others or they have no merit.  You're implying that some of the players in the competition are undeserving, and well, how could any of their images garner votes because they're obviously bad and mean nothing to anyone.

If it's your concern to get more players in the competition, that's admirable and a great idea, I whole heartedly agree that more players is good for the competition.  But your repeated mention of image quality really puts to question what your real intention is.

I've seen very few people say they didn't want a site wide contest.  James wants it, I want it, everyone I've talked to about it wants it.  Others here in this discussion can weigh in with their own opinion.

The only person I've seen say they didn't want site wide was Craig Seay, and that was only after he saw the flaws and got tired of what he perceived as opposition to positive change.  At first even he wanted site wide and has in fact lobbied for it for over 2 years now.

Laura Ann Photography wrote:
Personally, I don't find too much issue with that because the PotD competitions are about personal taste, and what appeals to that person as an image.

That's what it's supposed to be about, but if you pay careful attention you'll see that it's more often about personal taste in friends than the image.

Laura Ann Photography wrote:
Now here's the question.  You think that glamour and fetish could not win, but do you think that if Random or Aeric Goujon went into the competition that they wouldn't win either?

I think Aeric would win a few, but would not flat out dominate. He's really his own genre, so while I'm not following your point, I'm pretty sure it doesn't counter Chris's.

Laura Ann Photography wrote:
You're implying that people don't vote because an image is good, that they only follow lines of friendship or loyalty.

I never said or implied this.  Ever.  Find me the post where I said or implied this.  I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are mistaking me with some other poster here, because a couple of people have stated this.......but it wasn't me.

I don't think it and I didn't say it.

Chris Keeling wrote:
The only person I've seen say they didn't want site wide was Craig Seay, and that was only after he saw the flaws and got tired of what he perceived as opposition to positive change.  At first even he wanted site wide and has in fact lobbied for it for over 2 years now.

Getting it sitewide is directly at the mercy and speed levels of Tyler. I like the site, but llamas move faster. How long did it take just to get the thread stickied??? I reiterate, until that timeframe occurs and it IS sitewide, our purpose should be to improve things AND to promote more participation sitewide.

I asked for participation in my original post, and wrote to everyone who had a submission in the contest to c'mon in to the D.T. and state their case. What's good, bad, etc. How to promote the contest. How to attend to frustrations or grievances with the established format that I'd been hearing.

We've had some good suggestions. This discussion has actually lasted several pages and had quite a few schools of thought and ways of seeing things. We don't have to agree. Fact of the matter is that it's a good thing to have a vocal minority keeping the majority in line. Dissent is a good thing, this country was formed on that premise. But, anyone can bitch, formatting positive alternatives is the key. We had some interesting, thoughtful posts over the past couple of days and that's commendable.

I'm sure it has given James quite a bit to mull over. I know it's had me thinking a bit.

jandj studios wrote:
I believe that I and others are being accused of rigging the contest.

No one has singled you out. The accusations of vote stacking have been very specific, and they weren't made against you.

The old boy network comments aren't quite accusations of rigging, they're more accusations of biased voting, but not biased by genre or taste. I'm assuming that you feel you're part of that network, otherwise it wold be strange to feel that you're being accused of rigging the contest.

Chris Keeling wrote:

At no point have I accused anyone of any such thing, and at no point have I questioned your integrity.  In fact it's just the opposite, I've defended your integrity and backed your right to vote how you see fit.  Go back and read my posts, I have stated over and over again that there is nothing wrong with the core group of players voting the way they do, and I have said there is no conspiracy, it's just been a natural dynamic that a group of people with likeminded viewpoints have gathered together because of those like interests.  You guys aren't plotting and scheming, you are simply voting for what you like. 

The only thing I've said is because of that natural dynamic the competition is now weighted heavily towards what you guys like, and more players would mean more diversity and a fairer competition for other genre's.  I'm not suggesting in any way shape or form you stop voting the way you please, and you won't find a post by me here that says any differently.

You are taking something personally and as an attack that just isn't one.

ok - gave myself a little time out. Re-read the entire thread. I confess to over reacting to some statements made by you and others. Maybe I mistinterpreted them. It did seem like you implied a conspiarcy. Maybe i inferred it. I'll take you at your work that you weren't attacking my personal integrity. And move on.
(fyi- I love a good honest discussion of aesthetics especially with someone who disagrees with me. To me those are two separate issues)

I went back and re-read the entire thread.
I didn't read even one person say that less players would be good. Great no controversy. So maybe a little help from the site can remedy that. Everyone appears to be in favor of anonymous votes. Great.
Separate genre days or whatever- mixed some agree some don't. I personally don't care. I'll vote everyday in every genre even  those I would have nothing to enter. Unless prohibited. Then I'd follow the rules.  I guess  I don't feel any contest can eliminate personal taste. The anonymous votes should take care of voting issues.

When to enter - some mix of opinion here. Just remember  this is an international site and it would be great to have international players. So don't make the time constraits too restrictive.
I'm forcably retired- i can make the time.

Many times I have urged people to remember that this should be fun. Seems these days a lot of people are scared and angry about a lot of things. In my opinion, this POD 18+ contest shouldn't be one of those things.

Chris, et al - fix the contest as you wish so we can get back to having fun.

dj

Laura Ann Photography wrote:
However, you keep mentioning image quality throughout your posts, and you say that your main focus is improving the contest and bringing in more players.  But by your mentioning repeatedly image quality you're implying a lot.  You're implying that people don't vote because an image is good, that they only follow lines of friendship or loyalty.  You're implying that winning images aren't as good as others or they have no merit.  You're implying that some of the players in the competition are undeserving, and well, how could any of their images garner votes because they're obviously bad and mean nothing to anyone.

You're conflating multiple unrelated points, and I don't think Chris has said that any winning images were bad.

Regarding images quality, his pattern has been to say that certain great images get compeltely overlooked. That's different than bad ones winning.

He's also said that there are patterns of voting, but that doesn't imply that the image being voted for is bad.

They're separate points, eventhough they may jointly influence the contest.

jandj studios wrote:

ok - gave myself a little time out. Re-read the entire thread. I confess to over reacting to some statements made by you and others. Maybe I mistinterpreted them. It did seem like you implied a conspiarcy. Maybe i inferred it. I'll take you at your work that you weren't attacking my personal integrity. And move on.
(fyi- I love a good honest discussion of aesthetics especially with someone who disagrees with me. To me those are two separate issues)

I went back and re-read the entire thread.
I didn't read even one person say that less players would be good. Great no controversy. So maybe a little help from the site can remedy that. Everyone appears to be in favor of anonymous votes. Great.
Separate genre days or whatever- mixed some agree some don't. I personally don't care. I'll vote everyday in every genre even  those I would have nothing to enter. Unless prohibited. Then I'd follow the rules.  I guess  I don't feel any contest can eliminate personal taste. The anonymous votes should take care of voting issues.

When to enter - some mix of opinion here. Just remember  this is an international site and it would be great to have international players. So don't make the time constraits too restrictive.
I'm forcably retired- i can make the time.

Many times I have urged people to remember that this should be fun. Seems these days a lot of people are scared and angry about a lot of things. In my opinion, this POD 18+ contest shouldn't be one of those things.

Chris, et al - fix the contest as you wish so we can get back to having fun.

dj

F Stop Photography wrote:
Totally agree.

I agree as well. Just like any 'club,' it seems that clubs do better when there's more people involved.

But dammit- where can I put up a table advertising for people to vote in the 'daily election'?

If I recruit my friends, the table may get biased.... ;-)

Skydancer wrote:
BTW, I did not know about this thread till yesterday... but why the heck is it in Critique Forum?

It's been in General for months.  Some random Mod came in yesterday and for some strange reason after all these months decided it belonged in Critique.  There are critique aspects to this thread and even a list of who is open to critique and who isn't, but it's more a discussion thread.

Digital Fantastique wrote:
In my three days of participation, as a newcomer I like the contest and like the new work I am exposed to, and having exposure to new works.

I have met new friends but choose to vote based on the images I like most (and I do look at all of them.)

I will re-iterate that I think more people entering and voting will change the dynamic a bit in a positive way but that politics and a focus on "winning" should stay out of it.

In three days I have found new works that I would love to purchase from other photographers and models I would love to work with so it looks like I actually won three days in a row.

Again, I am new to the party but as a newcomer with a fresh, untarnished perspective, it would seem like the only problem is that people are focused on winning when they should just enjoy the game...

Three days isn't really long enough to have seen the patterns and the novelty factor is still high enough to keep it fun regardless.

Not one person has complained about not winning. The complaints are all about the winners being a homogenous group. Some people attribute this to genre, some to social factors, but no one is complaining that they themselves don't win.

If you go back, you'll even find a post from Chris asking why a particular image from someone else got no votes at all (it was a B&W glamour image with a watermark).

MC 2 wrote:

Three days isn't really long enough to have seen the patterns and the novelty factor is still high enough to keep it fun regardless.

Not one person has complained about not winning. The complaints are all about the winners being a homogenous group. Some people attribute this to genre, some to social factors, but no one is complaining that they themselves don't win.

If you go back, you'll even find a post from Chris asking why a particular image from someone else got no votes at all (it was a B&W glamour image with a watermark).

Yup, 3 days is not enough but I have watched a bit on the sidelines and at my age wonder if it wasn't fun for everyone else why they would go to all of the trouble of entering, voting and tracking this forum and discussion if they weren't enjoying it.

It sounds like there are some legitimate concerns and issues being addressed to perfect the system and that is great!

Some images might not get votes because people liked other images more. It seems pretty simple and clear-cut but yeah, maybe I'm too new to see the complexities of it.

You seem to have won a couple of times (and for good reason as your work is very good) and have 2 VIP accounts so I will trust that you know a lot more about it, and how things work around here than I, and are better able to advise on how to fix whatever it is that you all feel needs it.

I'm here for the fun. I do think categories and establishing too many new rules or guidelines might dampen interest. It seems to work because it is fairly simple to be apart of it.

Again, my opinion means little (or could it actually mean as much because I'm not carrying a bunch of MM forum baggage!?!) but it seems like a fun contest for people to network and evaluate each other's work.

Be well to all and have fun!!!

JoJo Suicide wrote:
POTD 18+ people, I have just posted this regarding Teschcore’s entry in today’s POTD 18+:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … ost7718974

Judgment calls please.

As far as the contest goes, I think two images need to be disqualified, and two people put on probation.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po_big.php? … ost7717765

{edit} Curious if James actually said he could post that image again today. Also curious about all these European models who are voting for Teschcore’s image. Anyone ever see them vote in the contest before?

Skydancer wrote:

As far as the contest goes, I think two images need to be disqualified, and two people put on probation.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po_big.php? … ost7717765

{edit} Curious if James actually said he could post that image again today. Also curious about all these European models who are voting for Teschcore’s image. Anyone ever see them vote in the contest before?

In a lot of cases, yesterday, when he was disqualified for vote stacking.

JoJo Suicide wrote:
POTD 18+ people, I have just posted this regarding Teschcore’s entry in today’s POTD 18+:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … ost7718974

Judgment calls please.

Nevermind the 15 day issue Jo Jo. He and his friends are vote stacking again today. He has also posted on Michael Randazzo's images an unsolicited critique, which violates MM's rule #2. It was a clear violation which was copied and pasted earlier in this thread.

It should be noted that Radazzo posted an unsolicited critique on Teshcore's image as well. When I wrote Randazzo regarding this, as well as the "please vote for me link" on his portfolio, he pulled his submission for today. His comment was to the effect "that OMP was where it's at and he's gone." He then cast a vote with a notation it would be his last.

I wrote James regarding this at starting at 11 AM, then 12:30  but so far the PM hasn't been read.

teschcore wrote:
cause everybody vote against people, who might get more votes than theirselfs.
its a jelous thing...and really stupid & unfair.

It's NOT a jealousy thing. It's a CHEATING thing. It's for vote stacking and posting an unsolicited critique on another competitors image thing. I STILL state you should be tossed again!

There are those who, if they wrote their friends for votes here, could round up hundreds very quickly. Keeling could, SLE could, Tommy could, I could, and the list goes on etc. etc. etc. Friends voting for friends and not for the best image makes it a popularity contest. Last I checked, this contest is not supposed to be about that~! regards!

F Stop Photography wrote:
Nevermind the 15 day issue Jo Jo. He and his friends are vote stacking again today. He has also posted on Michael Randazzo's images an unsolicited critique, which violates MM's rule #2. It was a clear violation which was copied and pasted earlier in this thread.

It should be noted that Radazzo posted an unsolicited critique on Teshcore's image as well. When I wrote Randazzo regarding this, as well as the "please vote for me link" on his portfolio, he pulled his submission for today. His comment was to the effect "that OMP was where it's at and he's gone." He then cast a vote with a notation it would be his last.

I wrote James regarding this at starting at 11 AM, then 12:30  but so far the PM hasn't been read.

Yeah, nevermind.
I pull my submission for today, too.

Thats really really cheap & unfair. that some people say, i and my friends (99% i never saw before, but you must know it better), vote stacking.

LOOOOLLLL
the haters & jeolous are the best lovers!

& to the Radazoo thing:
He posted a comment, and I posted a comment.
Than he wrote me a lot of messages and he tried to to insult me severely, but he failed. ..than he blocked me... LOL....
I can post that if you want, but i wont go down to that level.

Soo... much luck to everybody in future for this awesome, honest and really fair contest.

cheers from germany
and from my 3201948ß034ß3 friends i wrote to vote for me, too.

JoJo Suicide wrote:
POTD 18+ people, I have just posted this regarding Teschcore’s entry in today’s POTD 18+:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … ost7718974

Judgment calls please.

F Stop Photography wrote:
Nevermind the 15 day issue Jo Jo. He and his friends are vote stacking again today. He has also posted on Michael Randazzo's images an unsolicited critique, which violates MM's rule #2. It was a clear violation which was copied and pasted earlier in this thread.

It should be noted that Radazzo posted an unsolicited critique on Teshcore's image as well. When I wrote Randazzo regarding this, as well as the "please vote for me link" on his portfolio, he pulled his submission for today. His comment was to the effect "that OMP was where it's at and he's gone." He then cast a vote with a notation it would be his last.

I wrote James regarding this at starting at 11 AM, then 12:30  but so far the PM hasn't been read.

I really find it rather hilarious that Teschore would want us to believe that all the votes for his image yesterday and today just miraculously appeared.

The odds of a single MM user stumbling through 300,000 plus threads and finding the POTD 18+ thread on the very same day that Teschcore decided to enter the POTD 18+ are absolutely astounding. Now compound this by the number of votes his image is receiving. Further we have Teschcore trying to tell us that he told no one about his entry.

My vote: VOTE STACKING and he should be disqualified.

JoJo Suicide wrote:
My vote: VOTE STACKING and he should be disqualified.

Problem solved. Entry has been deleted, though in James' absense, I would have disqualified him as well.

And this is a perfect example of a problem I was referring to, that the amount of participants MUST be increased. However, when writing friends to check out the POTD 18+ Contest to try to drive participation up, one runs the risk of vote stacking---whether intentionally or UNintentionally. In this case? Obviously intentionally. In Mike Randazzo's case where he has a "please vote for me" link on his portfolio page? Again, the same. It's blatant.

JoJo Suicide wrote:
My vote: VOTE STACKING and he should be disqualified.

F Stop Photography wrote:
/bProblem solved. Entry has been deleted, though in James' absense, I would have disqualified him as well.

Just got a message from James - he's 'tied up' for the day.

I wonder what tomorrow's contest will be like

JoJo Suicide wrote:

Just got a message from James - he's 'tied up' for the day.

If it was you doing the tying, I'm sure James would be having an enjoyable day.  He wrote me as well and is aware of the happenings today.

D Naman wrote:
If things are kept real I will enter again .

,D

Hope you do participate....and often. The more people who do will keep it real, or as real as it can be under the circumstances. regards! ;^)

D Naman wrote:
If things are kept real I will enter again .

,D

F Stop Photography wrote:
Hope you do participate....and often. The more people who do will keep it real, or as real as it can be under the circumstances. regards! ;^)

Well, I'm posting again too...

The more legitimate contestants we can get into this contest the better. The more people, the more entries and the more votes - things will even out as we grow.

Skydancer wrote:
BTW, I did not know about this thread till yesterday... but why the heck is it in Critique Forum?

The thread is mentioned in the contest rules & descriptions, and in every end of day post, with links.

It wasn't IN Critique until yesterday when a Mod moved it.

RJ Berry wrote:
Why don't we have a winner yet from yesterday's contest??

Sorry RJ, I spent yesterday and most of today with my tax attorney playing pussy foot with the IRS.  I won. 

I'm getting caught up on the winner post now.

teschcore wrote:
i dont know why the hell the most of the people here so against "me/my pic"
james and maybe other ones thought, i wrote to people to vote for me.

but i really didnt.
I, my gf and another friend talked in the msn chat about modelmayhem.
than I said, that somebody told me, that there is an +18 POTD section.

I took part at the normal POTD vote, with good results...
so i want to tried out the +18 POTD section w/ my only really good +18 pic.

So i posted it and my gf and my other friend saw that.
they voted.

and.... some people thought i told it to them.!!!
thats really unfair.

and today, as james yesterday said i can upload it tomorrow again, i did it.
so, i got some votes, BUT than I read, that some people are wondering, why some european models or other ones vote for me!

Isnt it a vote section?
Do i know, why they vote for me? (i think, they like it)
Do i know, who they know about the vote section?
Shouldnt many people as possible see those section?

in the last days/weeks, the winner only got 2-3 or 4-5 votes....
and today, there are a lot of people who are voting ....

and if i will get 11037928 votes more today, i know...i wont win.
and why.....?

cause everybody vote against people, who might get more votes than theirselfs.
its a jelous thing...and really stupid & unfair.

but keep it on with all your great pics.....than the winner of the +18potd will win
with 1 vote on day.

p.s. some people wrote me, how stupid it is, to disqualify me.. they told me, they would make advertising at all their friends to vote, when they post a pic to vote.
thats a think i NEVER DID.

(sry for my english, i am german)

They came to the thread because you told them you were in it. If they wanted to see nude photos on MM, they can see many many more by viewing people's ports.

I guess it's possible that you didn't know that your friends would vote for you because they were your friends, but that is why they came to the contest and voted for you.

If you're that naive, then it's incorrect to accuse you of cheating, however that doesn't change the legitimacy of the votes.

The test will be to see if these "new avid particiapnts" from Europe recast their votes or vote on days when you don't participate.

If the people who voted for you vote everyday for the next week and you don't have a photo in the contest for each of those days, then we should all apologize to you. But I don't think there's any chance of that happening and I think you know it too.