F Stop Photography wrote:

Problem solved. Entry has been deleted, though in James' absense, I would have disqualified him as well.

And this is a perfect example of a problem I was referring to, that the amount of participants MUST be increased. However, when writing friends to check out the POTD 18+ Contest to try to drive participation up, one runs the risk of vote stacking---whether intentionally or UNintentionally. In this case? Obviously intentionally. In Mike Randazzo's case where he has a "please vote for me" link on his portfolio page? Again, the same. It's blatant.

There's zero risk of vote stacking from inviting friends. It's guaranteed.

Why would someone come to this contest and vote without being invested in it in any way? I think it would be very strange for an invited friend to not vote for a friend. It's not about integrity, it's human nature.


The way to bring people is to publicize the contest in a general way. Or maybe once a month have a special day with a theme or a prize and create a general thread about it.

Or maybe even have one day where vote stacking is allowed for that day. Then everyone can ALS their friends to vote for them and a few people are likely to stick around.

If we individually recruit people, there's no way to avoid friend votes.

teschcore wrote:

Yeah, nevermind.
I pull my submission for today, too.

Thats really really cheap & unfair. that some people say, i and my friends (99% i never saw before, but you must know it better), vote stacking.

LOOOOLLLL
the haters & jeolous are the best lovers!

& to the Radazoo thing:
He posted a comment, and I posted a comment.
Than he wrote me a lot of messages and he tried to to insult me severely, but he failed. ..than he blocked me... LOL....
I can post that if you want, but i wont go down to that level.

Soo... much luck to everybody in future for this awesome, honest and really fair contest.

cheers from germany
and from my 3201948ß034ß3 friends i wrote to vote for me, too.

You people love talking about people about them behind their backs don't you?

Such a shame.

Yea I told tEch I hated the image but it had great shock value. Oh well I am a dope I guess. I also told him to feel free to remove my comment. I also had to block him for sending me amazingly idiotic e-mails which may be due to the translations but the gist was "I am better then you and you are jealous." I couldn't give a rat's ass about his work or him.

And F stop, it isn't ethical for you to post our private conversations here. It wasn't needed to make your point only to show your supremacy. Fine thus the reason I suggested DPChallenge.com where you don't know who posted or voted for your image when the voting takes place. It is the only way to be fare. This thread and this contest isn't able to be fare no matter how many people you admonish.

I say delete the whole thing, who cares what a small click of people think after all? Not me. Have a nice day folks.

Oh and for the same price as MM you can get 400 images in your portfolio on OMP.

http://www.onemodelplace.com/mikerandazzo

PS, if you have something to say to me feel free to contact me and let me know, don't talk about me behind my back.

Michael P Randazzo wrote:

You people love talking about people about them behind their backs don't you?

Such a shame.

Yea I told tEch I hated the image but it had great shock value. Oh well I am a dope I guess. I also told him to feel free to remove my comment. I also had to block him for sending me amazingly idiotic e-mails which may be due to the translations but the gist was "I am better then you and you are jealous." I couldn't give a rat's ass about his work or him.

And F stop, it isn't ethical for you to post our private conversations here. It wasn't needed to make your point only to show your supremacy. Fine thus the reason I suggested DPChallenge.com where you don't know who posted or voted for your image when the voting takes place. It is the only way to be fare. This thread and this contest isn't able to be fare no matter how many people you admonish.

I say delete the whole thing, who cares what a small click of people think after all? Not me. Have a nice day folks.

Oh and for the same price as MM you can get 400 images in your portfolio on OMP.

http://www.onemodelplace.com/mikerandazzo

PS, if you have something to say to me feel free to contact me and let me know, don't talk about me behind my back.

Dope is not the word I'd use to describe you.  How are you not brigged yet?

Michael P Randazzo wrote:
You people love talking about people about them behind their backs don't you?

Such a shame.

Yea I told tEch I hated the image but it had great shock value. Oh well I am a dope I guess. I also told him to feel free to remove my comment. I also had to block him for sending me amazingly idiotic e-mails which may be due to the translations but the gist was "I am better then you and you are jealous." I couldn't give a rat's ass about his work or him.

And F stop, it isn't ethical for you to post our private conversations here. It wasn't needed to make your point only to show your supremacy. Fine thus the reason I suggested DPChallenge.com where you don't know who posted or voted for your image when the voting takes place. It is the only way to be fare. This thread and this contest isn't able to be fare no matter how many people you admonish.

I say delete the whole thing, who cares what a small click of people think after all? Not me. Have a nice day folks.

Oh and for the same price as MM you can get 400 images in your portfolio on OMP.

http://www.onemodelplace.com/mikerandazzo

PS, if you have something to say to me feel free to contact me and let me know, don't talk about me behind my back.

Michael,
I'd like to clarify a few things.
For the record, I think you are an excellent photogrpaher, and I'm pretty sure I have voted for your images before in this contest.
I am the one who first posted here about yesterday's contest, specifically about you and teschore. I did so assuming that this was the thread where the contest mods could see what I perceived to be several contest/rules violations. The fact that both you and he left negative (and public) comments on each other's picture entries was a distraction and disservice to yesterday's contest. Do you honestly think it's fair to submit an image entry into the contest and then leave negative comments on another person's entry so that others (including potential voters) can read? Additionally, you did have a link on your main page yesterday that said "Vote for Me" and linked to the PotD 18+ contest... which I'm pretty sure is against the rules as well.
I have nothing against you, and in fact wouldn't mind meeting or working with you some day. And I certainly have no horse in this recent race/debate about contest cliques and unfair voting. For me, it's this simple, yesterday I saw what appeared to be rules violations and I reported it. 
I personally hope you continue to participate, if you choose. I look forward to more great images.

D Naman wrote:
If things are kept real I will enter again .

,D

F Stop Photography wrote:
Hope you do participate....and often. The more people who do will keep it real, or as real as it can be under the circumstances. regards! ;^)

JoJo Suicide wrote:
Well, I'm posting again too...

The more legitimate contestants we can get into this contest the better. The more people, the more entries and the more votes - things will even out as we grow.

Seems to be the song that is in favor this season.

Looks to me as if this new crop of Barney Fife wannabe hall monitors is driving away more quality participation than they are bringing.

Edit
On very short reflection, I guess that would be the point of this current shrill tirade, wouldn't it? Have fun folks.

Tommy Dee wrote:

D Naman wrote:
If things are kept real I will enter again .

,D

Seems to be the song that is in favor this season.

Looks to me as if this new crop of Barney Fife wannabe hall monitors is driving away more quality participation than they are bringing.

Edit
On very short reflection, I guess that would be the point of this current shrill tirade, wouldn't it? Have fun folks.

You serve no purpose that I can see.  You haven't brought one legitimate viewpoint of you own to the conversation, only snide remarks.  You have consistently miscategorized what other people have said, and you even accused MC2 of editing your PM when you got caught talking about people behind their back.

Tommy, you are trolling in this thread.  Join the discussion in a meaningfull way or go away and don't come back.  I can't make you leave, but I can CAM you if you continue.

Tommy Dee wrote:
Seems to be the song that is in favor this season.

Looks to me as if this new crop of Barney Fife wannabe hall monitors is driving away more quality participation than they are bringing.

Edit
On very short reflection, I guess that would be the point of this current shrill tirade, wouldn't it? Have fun folks.

I'm truly sorry you feel that way Tommy, as that isn't my intent in any way shape or manner. I happen to admire the images you've submitted and respect the viewpoints stated in the many posts you have made previously in the D.T. Likewise the same holds true with Chris Keeling, J and J, Cm, and many, many other folks.

It's  my personal opinion you're ALL better shooters than I am, and I go to school on all your styles. You don't like what I shoot, or differ in opinion as to where I'm coming from in D.T. postings?? That's great. Vive la differance!

Again, my personal opinion is that MM is not as strong a tool for me, or many, as OMP, purestorm, net-models, and various other sites. It's my "play" site. No more, no less currently. I have had portfolios on MM off and on for 5 years, though this current port doesn't reflect that. And yes, I didn't participate much in anything with MM, as OMP was my main tool in the US. Purestorm and net-models blow away MM in being effective tools when I was in the UK. So, while I was aware of the POTD 18+ contest for quite a while, participation in it wasn't a priority for me.

However, now that I am back in the US fulltime, I'd love to see MM improve to give OMP a real run for the money. That site does have some great features that would be super to see incorporated here. I also suspect that any major improvements, etc. probably won't be attended to until the changeover is further along.

In that vein, I got involved with the thought of improving the site instead of bitching about it in the Site Matters Forum. That entailed volunteering to assist in Team Mayhem, The List, and the POTD 18+. I volunteered to assist James, and was accepted to do so. I have looked over the entire D.T. as well as the contest from cover to cover. There ARE obvious problems. I didn't think that pointing them out and trying to have an open group discussion regarding them was a "shrill tirade". You are more than welcome to interpret it that way, but in my opinion the "shrillness" is currently coming from your corner of the sandbox. Was posting Beavis, and deleting your entry not another form of taking your pail and shovel out of the sandbox in a hissyfit?? And this is contructive, how????

As to being a "Barney Fife wannabee hall monitor"? I should be so lucky to be Barney Fife, or so talented. Don Knotts made a hell of a career with that character. Obviously, you've inferred it to be a slam. So be it, accepted. Does that mean you're assuming the role of "Andy"? Lord knows MM does have the makings of Mayberry!

I'll be happy to make you a deal, as I did see that you withdrew your submission for today AND added that lovely Beavis and Butthead "Adolescent" crack. If James, or the majority of folks would rather I STFU, or GTFO, in assisting POTD 18+, I'd be more than glad to oblige. Say the word.... no problem! I'd gladly step aside if YOU prefer to do this yourself! Have at it.

I'll still upload images, and will kick in my $.02 worth from time to time, regardless.

Tommy Dee wrote:

Dear Tommy,
Sadly, another photographer who's work I truly admire (and happen to think is one of the best of the regular 18+ contest participants) has lost some respect with me today. I could care less to comment on the sniping going on between you and others in this thread. But I will comment on the "adolescent" post you made in today's contest thread.
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po_big.php? … ost7726682
Totally immature on your part, and it's a distraction and disservice to those who want to participate in this contest... which has clearly been good to you in the past. Even if you had kept your entry for today, I personally would not have even considered your image soley on principle.
It's ironic that your post appears one spot above James' post thanking everyone for the civility going on in today's contest. Guess he missed your post while writing his.

Tommy Dee wrote:
.

if you think I look like Barney Fife then maybe you need your eyes tested

jandj studios wrote:
ok chris and your posse - u win. have fun.

My posse?  I always wanted one of those.   

What did I win?

jandj studios wrote:
ruined - hope everyone feels happy. me it saddens

You're mistaken.  It was already broken when my posse got here.  We are merely the cavalry come to fix your mess.

See, I can act 12 and ignore the meaning behind what everyone is saying too. 

Have you not noticed the dwindling number of players the last few months?  Have you not noticed the same people voting and winning over and over again?  Have you not noticed a consistent type of image winning over and over again?

Did you really think the reason those images are winning over and over again are because they are the best in the world and other types just can't compete?

No...it's because there is no voter diversity.  More voters fixes that problem.  To have more voters something has to change.  You can't just announce "More voters come here" and expect it to happen.  You have to be proactive and give the voters a reason to play.

This discussion has been about how to make those changes and attract those voters.  Nothing more, nothing less.  But you, Tommy, and a couple of others have come in here and for whatever reason decided to derail that discussion and label us the devil.

That's counterproductive.  Everyone here has the same goal, a good contest.  Fighting people who are trying to get to that goal through open debate is extremely counterproductive.

I still vote for a picture based contest, no matter how much it upsets you.

jandj studios wrote:
ok chris and your posse - u win. have fun.

I'm in a posse now because I happen to agree with some of Chris's statements that some elements just might be broken or need tweaking? Is being an ostrich and sticking ones head in the sand and hope it goes away a better way of dealing with things?

Truth is, I've read Chris's postings and like much of his work, but I don't know him from Adam. What I have noticed him repeat again, and again, and again is that we need greater participation. I totally agree with that, if not some of the ideas mentioned to help to bring this about. So if that makes me a posse member, then I'm ready to saddle up, buckaroo!  ;^)

Skydancer wrote:
Now, compare all of that to the new site-wide non-18+ contest, where on Oct 16 there were about 1300 votes cast for 182 images.
Which playing field seems more diverse, and/or more level?

Thank God, someone actually understands the point that I was initially trying to make. I've been asking James about getting Tylor to put a sticky on the homepage and let us set up the POTD 18+ in similar fashion. I don't see where that is an unreasonable idea. Hence my posts earlier.

F Stop Photography wrote:
Thank God, someone actually understands the point that I was initially trying to make. I've been asking James about getting Tylor to put a sticky on the homepage and let us set up the POTD 18+ in similar fashion. I don't see where that is an unreasonable idea. Hence my posts earlier.

It's a little more involved than putting a sticky on the home page, as the new system is more of a beast to manage and moderate. But yeah, it's mainly a matter of duplicating the code and customizing it for the 18+ rules. As I said, the fact that James already has 4 co-moderators to help puts this contest ahead of the other one, as far as manage-ability. And yes, even though I do think it's time to move this to a site-wide 18+ contest, I have also been fairly "vocal" about the technical and procedural flaws still inherent in the system Tyler built.

Skydancer wrote:

It's a little more involved than putting a sticky on the home page, as the new system is more of a beast to manage and moderate. But yeah, it's mainly a matter of duplicating the code and customizing it for the 18+ rules. As I said, the fact that James already has 4 co-moderators to help puts this contest ahead of the other one, as far as manage-ability. And yes, even though I do think it's time to move this to a site-wide 18+ contest, I have also been fairly "vocal" about the technical and procedural flaws still inherent in the system Tyler built.

James is very excited about the contest going site wide, Tyler just hasn't made it happen yet.

You do understand that don't you?  No one has to be convinced of it here to make it happen, the lobbying should all be done to Tyler.

Chris Keeling wrote:
the lobbying should all be done to Tyler.

A point I have been discussing with James for weeks now. He was half kidding around when he said "do you know how long it took just to get a sticky in the forum?" And I think a thread in the Site forum with those of us really interested in POTD 18+ going sitewide with ALL of us expressing that sentiment might convince Tyler there is a real desire for it to occur. Squeeky wheel getting the grease, so to speak.

F Stop Photography wrote:
You don't like what I shoot,

Beyond your own descriptions in PM of adult web content that you apparently feel is substandard, I don't know your work.

F Stop Photography wrote:
or differ in opinion as to where I'm coming from in D.T. postings?? That's great. Vive la differance!

Yes. I have a strong dislike for people who decide that they know my motives and post public insinuations about my lack of integrity.

Your "difference of opinion" is akin to someone recently telling DJ here that "trying too hard" is good - what separates the men from the boys so to speak, while completely (perhaps intentionally) missing the fact that the term "trying too hard" was being used in the sense of "looking contrived and artificial".

When the use of language is that careless (or disingenuous) it becomes something quite different from "differences of opinion".

F Stop Photography wrote:
... Was posting Beavis, and deleting your entry not another form of taking your pail and shovel out of the sandbox in a hissyfit?? And this is contructive, how????

Two issues in that sentence: Yeah I should have let adolescence speak for itself. Since you are new you've probably missed some of the "votes outside some unspoken arbitrary time relating to U.S. EST fatally cheapen this contest". When I see the author of those opinions enter an image that has no merit beyond being the punch line of a poor sixth grade joke ... sorry.

With that said, perhaps it will be constructive in awarding someone a much desired win? lol

The other issue:

No I withdrew because I don't care to be a part of an event run by people who make unfounded and public remarks disparaging my integrity. Pretty simple really: call me a thief or a cheater and It's probable that you won't find a kind reception. Ignorantly running your mouth will gain the same.

I should have been done with my PM to James last night but that wasn't so. He may CC it to you so you can break site rules and post it here ... once again, enjoy.

F Stop Photography wrote:
As to being a "Barney Fife wannabee hall monitor"? I should be so lucky to be Barney Fife, or so talented. Don Knotts made a hell of a career with that character.

And again ... apparently the fact that I used the character's name ("Barney Fife") and not the actor's name ("Don Knotts") eluded you or ... disingenuosity rulz here dood!

F Stop Photography wrote:
Obviously, you've inferred it to be a slam.

God I hate it when people make me feel like a schoolmarm. No, you would have inferred that. I would have implied it. But I didn't. I understand that James needs help with this.

I have watched him sweat blood, trying to be diplomatic while attempting to keep the thread from being shut down. Trying to keep the quality players ... trying to up participation.

I understand fully that he might desire a life away from this.

Problem is that like the job of small town cop, hall monitor here doesn't pay very well - and so apparently draws those who apply for the wrong reasons.

After a year of James' work and apparent agony over people getting attitudes when he politely reminded them of the rules ... suddenly a group appears out of nowhere who seem to relish confronting new players.

If the Barney Fife reference still eludes you please PM me and I will attempt ... nevermind.

F Stop Photography wrote:
So be it, accepted. Does that mean you're assuming the role of "Andy"?

Not in the very least. I have no desire - in fact my volunteer work was/is in the "Help a Newbie Model" program so if I'm going to be an Andy or even a Rodney it will be there. But I doubt that too.

F Stop Photography wrote:
Lord knows MM does have the makings of Mayberry!

Given your immense superiority over MM and its membership I have to wonder what is your stake here? Gathering fresh meat for your real "journeyman" work?

F Stop Photography wrote:
I'll be happy to make you a deal, as I did see that you withdrew your submission for today AND added that lovely Beavis and Butthead "Adolescent" crack. If James, or the majority of folks would rather I STFU, or GTFO, in assisting POTD 18+, I'd be more than glad to oblige. Say the word.... no problem! I'd gladly step aside if YOU prefer to do this yourself! Have at it.

A deal? WTF? lol

Maybe it is I who am being obtuse now. Could you please explain what value is in your offer to me? What it it that you expect from me in return for this generous deal?

F Stop Photography wrote:
I'll still upload images, and will kick in my $.02 worth from time to time, regardless.

That makes me feel oddly warm, thank you so much.

Skydancer wrote:
Dear Tommy,
Sadly, another photographer who's work I truly admire (and happen to think is one of the best of the regular 18+ contest participants) has lost some respect with me today. I could care less to comment on the sniping going on between you and others in this thread. But I will comment on the "adolescent" post you made in today's contest thread.
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po_big.php? … ost7726682
Totally immature on your part, and it's a distraction and disservice to those who want to participate in this contest... which has clearly been good to you in the past. Even if you had kept your entry for today, I personally would not have even considered your image soley on principle.
It's ironic that your post appears one spot above James' post thanking everyone for the civility going on in today's contest. Guess he missed your post while writing his.

Mr Dancer,

Thanks for the kind words.

You know what?  I will grant your "immature".

Please explain how this devalues the contest more than someone knowingly entering crap even if attempting to hide it under "humor" - especially after yipping about the quality and meaning of this contest. Yeah, a serious photographer is going to want to place an entry against that.

I'll say it again: The way to increase the credibility of this contest it to foster higher quality entries.

There has been obligatory whining here about "good" work being ignored. There have been killer entries offered by amazing photographers ... when I was the only vote.

So what, we have different tastes? Perhaps. So did I accuse those from the current crop who were around then of throwing the vote? No. I asked a model friend to come visit. We made photos.

Groupthink is quite comforting, isn't it?

Hope not to be even more of a jerk but if my utter failure as a human being has had such an effect on your life maybe it's time for you to move up to OMP or photoSIG or something ...

Tommy Dee wrote:
That makes me feel oddly warm, thank you so much.

Glad your feeling better now Tommy! I'd hate that anything I said to you in our private PM or forum postings might be taken personally.....oh wait, reading the above, guess it was.

I never accused you by name of any transgressions, privately OR publicaly. Nor did I think there was any transgression on your part at all that I ever saw. Though you did take one line in a Forum post I wrote to heart that I was slamming you. "Voting early or late to influance the vote totals" was the line, I believe. You haven't done that, others have and do. That'd be cured by a sitewide contest with a blind vote though, don't you think??

Likewise, I am not the one to resort to name calling, or a holier than thou attitude. Likewise, I'm not the one having a meltdown with the Beavis posting and pulling a submission. That, you've done all by yourself.

We just have a difference of opinion in a Forum regarding a contest on a website that has nothing to do with real life, either mine or yours.

So, still gonna participate in the contest---or act like an adolescent???

F Stop Photography wrote:
Thank God, someone actually understands the point that I was initially trying to make. I've been asking James about getting Tylor to put a sticky on the homepage and let us set up the POTD 18+ in similar fashion. I don't see where that is an unreasonable idea. Hence my posts earlier.

Speaking of "circling the wagons":

The only person I've seen (and I am including us "GOB's") who has endorsed lowering participation was some random person who wanted only VIP's to be able to vote.

What purpose does it serve for you newcomers to paint those of us who have contributed to this from day one as bad guys?

Edit
Just read the above ... and see that you have as much interest in real discussion as you do in intellectual integrity.

Chris Keeling wrote:

You're mistaken.  It was already broken when my posse got here.  We are merely the cavalry come to fix your mess.

See, I can act 12 and ignore the meaning behind what everyone is saying too. 

Have you not noticed the dwindling number of players the last few months?  Have you not noticed the same people voting and winning over and over again?  Have you not noticed a consistent type of image winning over and over again?

Did you really think the reason those images are winning over and over again are because they are the best in the world and other types just can't compete?

No...it's because there is no voter diversity.  More voters fixes that problem.  To have more voters something has to change.  You can't just announce "More voters come here" and expect it to happen.  You have to be proactive and give the voters a reason to play.

This discussion has been about how to make those changes and attract those voters.  Nothing more, nothing less.  But you, Tommy, and a couple of others have come in here and for whatever reason decided to derail that discussion and label us the devil.

That's counterproductive.  Everyone here has the same goal, a good contest.  Fighting people who are trying to get to that goal through open debate is extremely counterproductive.

I still vote for a picture based contest, no matter how much it upsets you.

you completely misunderstand me. and that probably is my fault.
I hope you all fix the contest and it becomes success.
I am truly sorry that my efforts to make it a quality event have failed.
my communication skills have falied me and i'm too sick and too tired to try to explain.

just let me say one last thing. the thing that us Good ole boys who are ruining the contest have always wanted is the recognition of quality of the entire picture.

If glamour, fetish or other things don't get votes it not a conspiracy. It is because the quality of those images has not  been as good as other photographs on any given day. Not because I am a cheat or whatever.
The images that have won have not always been those i have voted for. So I am apparently i not only a cheat but a bad one.

Tommy Dee wrote:
you have as much interest in real discussion as you do in intellectual integrity.

Tommy, in the past 5 pages all you have done is confront people with other points of views to yours. Not once have you contributed any suggestions to making the contest better. Does that mean that you feel all is fine and dandy?? What discussion? Discussion leads, hopefully, to a common understanding and agreement. You see that happening here between us?

You have no problem posting the 16 medallians of your past contest wins on your page, so they must mean something to you. The one and only on my page means something to me as well. And yes, it'd be nice to add more. But no, it's not the be-all and end-all for me.

I would like it to have more credibility than it currently has. That is my only motivation here. It is my feeling that if we had greater participation by going sitewide it would lead to that. If by going sitewide I never won another one again due to the increased quality of competition, that too would be fine by me. Do you share that sentiment? Or is it your preference to remain a big fish in a little pond???

jandj studios wrote:

you completely misunderstand me. and that probably is my fault.
I hope you all fix the contest and it becomes success.
I am truly sorry that my efforts to make it a quality event have failed.
my communication skills have falied me and i'm too sick and too tired to try to explain.

just let me say one last thing. the thing that us Good ole boys who are ruining the contest have always wanted is the recognition of quality of the entire picture.

If glamour, fetish or other things don't get votes it not a conspiracy. It is because the quality of those images has not  been as good as other photographs on any given day. Not because I am a cheat or whatever.
The images that have won have not always been those i have voted for. So I am apparently i not only a cheat but a bad one.

You're answering accusations I haven't made again.  I have stated over and over again there isn't a conspiracy, there isn't cheating, there isn't any of the above.  There is simply a bunch of regular players who are likeminded in their likes and dislikes, and because of that the same type images are the only ones winning on a consistent basis.  I have stated that more players will add diversity and solve the problem the contest has the reputation of having.

How you jump from that statement to calling you or anyone else a cheater I have no idea, but I've seen you defend yourself for what I'm not accusing you of multiple times now.  I don't know how else to say it........it's simply a dynamic that happened naturally, not a conspiracy.

The one thing that I disagree with you about, and that I know to my core that you are wrong about, is your statement that Glamour images don't get votes because they aren't any good.  That is a narrowminded statement that just is not true.  I have entered good images that have gotten no votes whatsoever.  I have seen GW Burns images entered that have gotten no votes whatsoever.  I can line the experts up that will verify that the Glamour images being ignored are as good or better than the fine art images winning and garnering votes on those same days.  They aren't getting votes because the core group of players don't like the genre.  It's that simple and has nothing to do with quality.

JandJ, I am not talking about GWC tits and ass pictures, I'm talking about good quality glamour shots, done by people at the top of their games.  Those images are being ignored simply because of a classification they have been placed in.

That's not right, and the reason we are calling for more diversity.

Chris Keeling wrote:

You're answering accusations I haven't made again.  I have stated over and over again there isn't a conspiracy, there isn't cheating, there isn't any of the above.  There is simply a bunch of regular players who are likeminded in their likes and dislikes, and because of that the same type images are the only ones winning on a consistent basis.  I have stated that more players will add diversity and solve the problem the contest has the reputation of having.

How you jump from that statement to calling you or anyone else a cheater I have no idea, but I've seen you defend yourself for what I'm not accusing you of multiple times now.  I don't know how else to say it........it's simply a dynamic that happened naturally, not a conspiracy.

The one thing that I disagree with you about, and that I know to my core that you are wrong about, is your statement that Glamour images don't get votes because they aren't any good.  That is a narrowminded statement that just is not true.  I have entered good images that have gotten no votes whatsoever.  I have seen GW Burns images entered that have gotten no votes whatsoever.  I can line the experts up that will verify that the Glamour images being ignored are as good or better than the fine art images winning and garnering votes on those same days.  They aren't getting votes because the core group of players don't like the genre.  It's that simple and has nothing to do with quality.

JandJ, I am not talking about GWC tits and ass pictures, I'm talking about good quality glamour shots, done by people at the top of their games.  Those images are being ignored simply because of a classification they have been placed in.

That's not right, and the reason we are calling for more diversity.

"The one thing that I disagree with you about, and that I know to my core that you are wrong about, is your statement that Glamour images don't get votes because they aren't any good.  That is a narrowminded statement that just is not true"

that's not what i said. i said "It is because the quality of those images has not  been as good as other photographs on any given day." some days a so-called glamour shot is the best and gets votes. from me and others. like today.

also, i guess i don't understand what you mean by glamour.  i mean what Tommy usually enters is as much glamour as what  other peolpe wnter isn't it ? I mean tommy has often told me he doesn'r like artistic stuff as much as i do.
To me genre is b.s. It's zenophobic. i vote for the best picture that day as i believe everyone does.

jandj studios wrote:
i vote for the best picture that day as i believe everyone does.

Through the window of your own eyes and viewpoints. I'd love to have 1000 eyes and 500 viewpoints reviewing the work being shown.

Mike Roberts wrote:
Can the photographer of a winner, posted by the model in the photograph, put the medallion on his/her page?

Absolutely.  I always send the code for the medallion to the models in my winners for them to post on their page.  It's just that much more advertising for the contest, and it's a feather in the cap for a model to display the emblem on her profile.

Greg Kolack wrote:
So, in answer to my question, if no labia was seen and only pubic hair, would my photo have been OK?

Brian Diaz wrote:
No, I believe a close up of pubic hair would be in violation of the spirit of the rule, and possibly rule #17.

Greg Kolack wrote:
That's what I don't understand - how are we suppose to determine what the "spirit" of the rule means? In the instance that someone - like myself - wants to post a photo that fits into the guidelines, and not post it, get a lot of nice comments, end up on a lot of lists, and then ask to have it removed?

And the rule states no focuing on genitals or anus - it says nothing about pubic hair.

I'm really not trying to argue with you - but there are a lot of unclear and contradictory statements here, and it's tough to adhere to the rules when they are unclear. How are we to know what the "spirit" of any rule is?

Lou Benjamin wrote:
... Uh, yeah, that works fine as long as one's next snap stays in bounds! ... and life's too short.

What the mods are saying is that the fear of losing sponsorship or advertising revenue trumps all. I think your allusion to a slippery slope rings true. We may not get to the point where there's an all-out ban on frontal nudity, but I can see these decisions becoming increasingly restrictive.

I suspect a lot more folks would be interested in this discussion, if they thought that such restrictions might be extended to "booty shots," but most don't imagine their work being censored, and a number of our fellow photographers have taken it upon themselves to be "arbiters of good taste" and go CAM crazy. Myspace and deviantART have both come up with different and less stifling approaches to this issue. I hope MM's management will do the same.

To say that the piece in question is "about" her genitalia is simplistic and absurd. Yes, part of her vulva was illuminated, but the foreshortened point of view, framing and dramatic lighting presents her architecture as a puzzle for the viewer to figure out. Her lips were not showing, though there was clearly a depression. The image invites comparisons to flowers and ornamental decor. To say that the photo is about her crotch is to ignore everything else in the photo. It's more about surprise, light, lines, allusion and illusion than it is about pussy.

The problem is that such an assessment can't be distilled into a black and white recipe that can be applied without thinking. The strongest argument for allowing this photo to stay in your portfolio (other than freedom of speech) is an argument for its artistic merit, and there's no provision for artistic merit in the rules.

This site is not an art institution, and its operators have no intention of defending artistic exploration and expression that's transgressive or controversial. As has been stated in numerous ways in this thread, the management's primary concern is defending the business model. CAMs are a mechanism for retaining membership — an important measure for potential advertisers.

"Artistic" (as in nude) on this site has become  a code word for "tame." When someone posts a photo that seems a little more "hot," it's a sure bet that someone will defend it by posting a comment noting its "tastefulness." I'm sure that part of the concern with your image is that it will be read as porn, and that's ironic because the hardcore porn aficionado would reject such an image specifically because it doesn't read explicitly and exclusively about the sex act.

This isn't a new problem. In 1866, Gustave Courbet painted an incredibly provocative, realistic, and explicit work of art called "L'origine Du Monde (The Origin of the World)." That piece now resides in the Musée d'Orsay in Paris. Interestingly, the curators felt defensive enough about the way the piece would be read, that they placed this disclaimer along with the image on their web site:


What's noteworthy is that the curators posted a clear image of the piece on the web site, and they didn't hide it away from the public with an 18+/NSFW sign. If you visit the museum, the piece is on public display, not hidden in the archives. Depending on where you sit, that's either a mature, measured, and rational approach, or it's crazy, liberal and French.

I'm sure Courbet's piece is not the only provocative work at the Orsay. And I'm also sure they have patrons and sponsors; they just aren't being gagged by those purse strings.

Brian Diaz wrote:
Do you really not see the relationship between genitals and pubic hair?

Lou Benjamin wrote:
Slippery slope! Now you're arguing against the implication of genitalia. I think a rule like "No pubic hair" could be subverted by strategic application of a razor.

Greg Kolack wrote:
I do not consider pubic hair to be genitals. Genitals and pubic hair are 2 completely different things. It is possible to have a photo with both pubic hair and genitals in the shot, and it is possible to have a shot with only pubic hair in the shot.

What you are saying is a close up of a woman's bikini bottom pulled down to expose pubic hair would be considered focusing on genitals because the pubic hair is showing and therefore not allowed. But the very same shot with a woman who shaves her pubic hair pulling down her bikini bottom to the very same level would only show skin, so that is not showing genitals, and it is OK.

See how this is confusing?

This is interesting...

Just to be clear...
A close-up of pubic hair, without being able to tell gender... just pubic hair would be against current MM guidelines?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this…

I wonder if all if not most of our images in our 18+ PotD thread fall into this.

You guys might be right… time to take our competition off site…

Chris Keeling wrote:

Absolutely.  I always send the code for the medallion to the models in my winners for them to post on their page.  It's just that much more advertising for the contest, and it's a feather in the cap for a model to display the emblem on her profile.

Please send the code to my alternate portfolio, where I have the photo. She has it credited to me here: https://www.modelmayhem.com/359624

Thanks!

Chris Keeling wrote:

Absolutely.  I always send the code for the medallion to the models in my winners for them to post on their page.  It's just that much more advertising for the contest, and it's a feather in the cap for a model to display the emblem on her profile.

Please send the code to my alternate portfolio, where I have the photo. She has it credited to me here: https://www.modelmayhem.com/359624

Thanks!

Hana Song wrote:
A discussion about the winners and entries over the last couple of days would seem
to be a good thing for the people (and future participants) who do enter the contest.
It can increase the quality of the entries, so that the best images can be entered.

Just a thought

i agree . you start.

jandj studios wrote:
i thought night's entries are among the best group we've had on any one day in a while. different players, different approaches by some regular players. was really hard to choose.

Agreed. This weekend's submittals had a wide range of different looks and some great quality images. Alot of fine work overall.

What I did notice though was one day we had 24 different submittals. (25  if you consider the double entry) And even those two entries if submitted one per day would have been great to be able to review along with the rest.

However, there was a total of 14 votes, and not all were cast by those doing a submission. That's alot of drive by postings. If ALL post and don't vote, James might have to break a 0-0-0-0-0-0-0 tie, if there's no non-submittal votes cast. It'd be the same if we all voted for ourselves, no? 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1

Would it not make the contest stronger if we post our submittal, then come back later and vote? Even if we think our image to be the best, then vote for the work we think is #2. I don't think it should be mandatory to vote if we submit.... but I do think we should all participate if possible. Any thoughts on this?  ;^)

Oh, and really like the new Av and "bondage" image Eryn, super work with Deek!