yoshuaS wrote:
You've made women feel unsafe with pathologically abusive/exploitative/inappropriate behavior
You've turned art into fear

Has someone reported me?

yoshuaS wrote:
photographers ... post photos publicly they don't want out there, sell their photos on subscription websites,

What did the model release say?

yoshuaS wrote:
The suspicion, abrasiveness, and aloofness bordering on rudeness when trying to book new talent is really starting to wear on me- but you know what?  It's not their fault, it's yours..

Feel free to speak for yourself and leave the rest of us out of it. Perhaps you need to reevaluate your approach rather resort to blaming everyone else for what seems to be happening to you. Your experience is not mine, and it's not even close.

Mark Salo wrote:

What did the model release say?

Yep, you're exactly who I'm talking about.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
Tired of rude, abrasive assumptions while posting.

Especially absurd nonsense that passes the buck when there is no reason for it whatsoever.
I've always gotten along great with the models I engage and work with.

Your failures are yours alone, keep it that way.

I find it suspicious how many photographers are finding that they need to defend themselves publicly, or taking offense at my post. If you had nothing to worry about seems like you wouldn't be half as upset about this post as you obviously are.

LightDreams wrote:
You've certainly touched on some real problems that are out there, and some behaviors that need to be corrected.

But what I can't figure out is that I'm not getting anything like the kind of responses that you are describing.  I don't claim to know why.  I guess everyone has their own experiences.

Yours is the only response here I don't find suspicious.  I dramatized a bit to make a point, glad you got it.

Iona Lynn 2 wrote:
I'm here to create art; not chit chat about creating art.

So yes I've been called "rude" & "abrasive" I'm interested in knowing the details about your project/booking NOT your personal life or your cat.

Why should I have to spend 3 hours of chatting, txting, emails, to work a 2 hour photo shoot?

It is not rude to treat your art like a business, it is how more art is created.

I don't think you understood the point of my post.

JQuest wrote:

Feel free to speak for yourself and leave the rest of us out of it. Perhaps you need to reevaluate your approach rather resort to blaming everyone else for what seems to be happening to you. Your experience is not mine, and it's not even close.

After ten years my approach is nothing but professional.  If you don't think there's a very real phenomenon where women have their guard up sky-high on approach then you're kidding yourself or ignorant.  I've worked on everything from L'oreal commercials to student films in my career and this phenomenon is pervasive at every level, and exactly the point of my post.  I'm not actually complaining, I find it very easy to work with people actually as my behavior and portfolio speak for themselves.  I was making a point, and it has very obviously struck a nerve with whom I suspect are exactly the right people.  I don't see a need to be so annoyed or defensive otherwise.

yoshuaS wrote:

I find it suspicious how many photographers are finding that they need to defend themselves publicly, or taking offense at my post. If you had nothing to worry about seems like you wouldn't be half as upset about this post as you obviously are.

Thanks for the projection, it has zero to do with my reality or the reality of the people I work with - two things you know nothing about whatsoever.

My photography is a slow moving, casual hobby, a fun way of creating something beautiful.

All I know about you is a grouchy post pointing fingers at others. If it was done in sarcasm, it failed.
Posting sarcasm on the internet is best avoided, you will be misunderstood far more often than not. As you would be seeing now if you were looking.
If it was done because that's actually what you think, it failed spectacularly.

Either way, it failed. That you had our favorite polite Canadian photographer respond in a way that makes you believe you succeeded is just part of how things seem to go around here. Divide his post by the total posts that are responses to your own negativity and you'll have your percentage of "success".

Drill down, it won't help. Own it, I've been the dick before due to misunderstanding but I owned it. It's not too late to make amends. Cheers, SD

yoshuaS wrote:
After ten years my approach is nothing but professional.

According only to you. Yet also according only to you the rest of us are all guilty of the litany of despicable actions you outlined in your original post

If you don't think there's a very real phenomenon where women have their guard up sky-high on approach then you're kidding yourself or ignorant.

What, wait... If I don't have the same issues with model responses as you that makes me ignorant? Actually that statement makes someone ignorant and I'm really sure it isn't me. News flash, women always have had to have their guard up when dealing with unknown men why should they be any different with you? Could it be your approach?

I've worked on everything from L'oreal commercials to student films in my career and this phenomenon is pervasive at every level, and exactly the point of my post.

Which proves nothing in regard to how others receive responses from prospective models.

I'm not actually complaining,

Bullshit, it's exactly what you are doing  as well as maligning "all of us" as the cause of your problem.

I find it very easy to work with people actually as my behavior and portfolio speak for themselves.

No one is disputing this, however you seem to think it's fair to tar all other photographers with a sweeping bullshit generalization because of your problem in regard to model responses.

I was making a point, and it has very obviously struck a nerve with whom I suspect are exactly the right people.

Oh that's cowardly, I now can understand why you get the responses you do. Your passive aggressiveness is positively oozing forth.

I don't see a need to be so annoyed or defensive otherwise.

Who other than you has said any of the responders were annoyed? Baffled, perplexed, definitely amused that someone would post such idiocy sure, but annoyed, nah. Once again that would be you projecting in an attempt to paint others as the problem again. The actual reason I responded is because you point blank told me your problem is my fault, and because I didn't stay quiet I proved your point? You posted a laundry list of the things that are the fault of all photographers (according to you) and that all photographers are guilty of and conveniently exempted yourself. Amazing.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
I've always gotten along great with the models I engage and work with.

Your failures are yours alone, keep it that way.

HiResPhotographs wrote:
I've yet to have one of those rude, abrasive responses.

Ivan123 wrote:
The worst that happens to me is that I am ignored.  I've never had a rude refusal.

My experience has been essentially the same as the above. An occasional ghost or lack of response, but I don't think I've ever had suspicion, abrasiveness, or aloofness bordering on rudeness from any model, and I've been doing this for quite a while now.

Nor have I heard this as a common issue from other photographers.

If you are seeing the abusive behavior regularly you might want to seriously re-examine your approach or the places where you exercise that approach. Better yet get someone you trust to review your methods, posts, or other communications to see what might be triggering the hostile responses.

yoshuaS wrote:
I was making a point, and it has very obviously struck a nerve with whom I suspect are exactly the right people.  I don't see a need to be so annoyed or defensive otherwise.

Possibly what others were reacting to was a fairly shallow attempt at boosting oneself at the expense of others.

yoshuaS wrote:
photographers ... post photos publicly they don't want out there, sell their photos on subscription websites,

Mark Salo wrote:
What did the model release say?

yoshuaS wrote:
Yep, you're exactly who I'm talking about.

Are you anti-model release?

yoshuaS wrote:
It's not their fault, it's yours.

Sorry, but I am convinced, it isn't my fault, but it is your fault.  More than that, it is your fault for every sexual assault, rape,  and 'Me Too' moment across the entire world.  You are responsible for every dirty old man approaching a teen woman.

That, of course, is just to create some perspective.  You know, "I dramatized a bit to make a point, glad you got it." 

You specifically talk about booking 'New Talent' as if new talent hasn't grown up as girls or ever experienced harassment.  What every girl has experienced and been warned about by other girls and women is what leads to their attitudes of self preservation.  You came into the forums and caustically insult everyone and we are to think that you are polite and patient with new talent?  Not when you have indicated that it "is really starting to wear on me."  Which means that you have lost your composure and you are probably reinforcing the idea to the model that you and all photographers are what you described in your OP. 

What's more, the problem really seems to be all about you.  Not having empathy for the models.  Not helping them to work through it.  It is about you, "and frankly it's getting in my way."  It is getting in your way because you don't have the kindness, grace and experience to work through it, or move on without being sore?  Personally, I don't find it getting in my way.  I get to shoot my projects, just fine.  The closest I have ever gotten to asking for a date is to ask for a second booking, which I normally get.

Before you respond to me as you did the others, please note that I will find it suspicious if you need to defend yourself publicly, or if you took offense at my post. If you had nothing to worry about it seems like you wouldn't be half as upset about this post as I expect you to be.

yoshuaS wrote:
The suspicion, abrasiveness, and aloofness bordering on rudeness when trying to book new talent is really starting to wear on me- but you know what?  It's not their fault, it's yours.  Women have been so thoroughly victimized by photographers that if they aren't immediately on their guard, curt, and very abrasive during the initial booking process they're opening themselves up to abuse.  Women don't feel safe because photographers like to touch, pressure them into doing things they don't want to, post photos publicly they don't want out there, sell their photos on subscription websites, try to sneak 'crotch shots', ask them on dates, or make crudely inappropriate comments.  You've made women feel so unsafe that they have to be borderline rude when booking to make sure firm boundaries are immediately established, and that defensiveness gets in the way of an honest exchange of ideas, a camaraderie that leads to open discussion and collaboration on art.  You've made women feel unsafe with pathologically abusive/exploitative/inappropriate behavior and turned what should be a beautiful collaborative process of creation into one fraught with potential dangers for talent.  You've turned art into fear because you can't keep your hands and comments to yourselves, and frankly it's getting in my way so fucking stop.

There's a lot of truth here.
It's not always about feeling unsafe... It's about getting really tired of trying our best to screen out the inappropriate ones and then being utterly disappointed when you fail every now and then.

yoshuaS wrote:
The suspicion, abrasiveness, and aloofness bordering on rudeness when trying to book new talent is really starting to wear on me- but you know what?  It's not their fault, it's yours.  Women have been so thoroughly victimized by photographers that if they aren't immediately on their guard, curt, and very abrasive during the initial booking process they're opening themselves up to abuse.  Women don't feel safe because photographers like to touch, pressure them into doing things they don't want to, post photos publicly they don't want out there, sell their photos on subscription websites, try to sneak 'crotch shots', ask them on dates, or make crudely inappropriate comments.  You've made women feel so unsafe that they have to be borderline rude when booking to make sure firm boundaries are immediately established, and that defensiveness gets in the way of an honest exchange of ideas, a camaraderie that leads to open discussion and collaboration on art.  You've made women feel unsafe with pathologically abusive/exploitative/inappropriate behavior and turned what should be a beautiful collaborative process of creation into one fraught with potential dangers for talent.  You've turned art into fear because you can't keep your hands and comments to yourselves, and frankly it's getting in my way so fucking stop.

OK, I'm quoting this entire opening salvo for posterity because once everyone on here points out how utterly ridiculous this is and you go to delete your account we'll all be able to get a good laugh out of this for years to come.

This one ranks right up there with the post/casting call where the OP did an experiment to see if people actually read the casting call (they didn't) where it said there would be limb dismemberment and all these people responded asking to be cast for the gig. PRICELESS!  OMG though, this one is a close second for sure!

Shot By Adam wrote:

yoshuaS wrote:
This one ranks right up there with the post/casting call where the OP did an experiment to see if people actually read the casting call (they didn't) where it said there would be limb dismemberment and all these people responded asking to be cast for the gig. PRICELESS!  OMG though, this one is a close second for sure!

Two of my favorite MM Hall of Shame were not from the forums but profiles. One was an individual who claimed to be an artist/photographer. He filled his gallery with pics from Metart, all different photographers with different styles and claimed they were his. Two was a photographer who asked that models not try to date him because he already had so many girlfriends he was unable to keep up.

veypurr wrote:
Two of my favorite MM Hall of Shame were not from the forums but profiles. One was an individual who claimed to be an artist/photographer. He filled his gallery with pics from Metart, all different photographers with different styles and claimed they were his. Two was a photographer who asked that models not try to date him because he already had so many girlfriends he was unable to keep up.

On that note, check out the OP's profile. It's more of the same sort of belligerent sanctimony, which is a curious combination of attitudes for one person to simultaneously exhibit. So far OP hasn't gotten the point though, and his profile is just the same as it was before he got pummeled here for his off-key remarks. Also, he seems suddenly silent in this thread, even though he's been online all along. He must be very confused by all the blowback over his ridiculous outbursts.

Shot By Adam wrote:
This one ranks right up there with the post/casting call where the OP did an experiment to see if people actually read the casting call (they didn't) where it said there would be limb dismemberment and all these people responded asking to be cast for the gig. PRICELESS!  OMG though, this one is a close second for sure!

For your amusement:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/52585

yoshuaS wrote:
The suspicion, abrasiveness, and aloofness bordering on rudeness when trying to book new talent is really starting to wear on me- but you know what? It's not their fault, it's yours.

You sure know how to go off the rails!  It's wrong to throw a blanket statement blaming all photographers for your experiences. It's not logical.

yoshuaS wrote:
Women have been so thoroughly victimized by photographers that if they aren't immediately on their guard, curt, and very abrasive during the initial booking process they're opening themselves up to abuse.

First you blame all photographers, then you go speaking for all women? I don't doubt that some women have had bad experiences with some photographers, but again you are throwing a blanket statement out there that discounts the FACT that there are many models and photographers who do not fit in your generalities.

yoshuaS wrote:
Women don't feel safe because photographers like to touch, pressure them into doing things they don't want to, post photos publicly they don't want out there, sell their photos on subscription websites, try to sneak 'crotch shots', ask them on dates, or make crudely inappropriate comments.

So you are speaking for all women again!  Not all women are afraid. Many know how to deal with the few photographers that are inappropriate either before, during or after the process of shooting. Certainly there are photographers who fit the stereotype you are making them out to be, but there are models who do things that make them difficult to work with too.  I believe that many of the problems are a result of poor communication or a missed vetting of red flags as to how that person works.

yoshuaS wrote:
You've made women feel so unsafe that they have to be borderline rude when booking to make sure firm boundaries are immediately established, and that defensiveness gets in the way of an honest exchange of ideas, a camaraderie that leads to open discussion and collaboration on art.

There you go again speaking for all women!  You might not know what caused a potential model you wish to work with to react the way she or he does. They could have had a bad day, a bad experience last week, or that might be their personality.  I don't experience the same situations you have, and I have been photographing people for over 40 years back in the day when we ran ads in print media, held model calls at public locations, talked on the phone, and so on. Digital technology has given us the tools to communicate in real time all over the World. We can do more vetting than ever before because of all the information that is available to the public. Yet are people getting lazy because of the easy button?

yoshuaS wrote:
You've made women feel unsafe with pathologically abusive/exploitative/inappropriate behavior and turned what should be a beautiful collaborative process of creation into one fraught with potential dangers for talent.

There you go again blaming unknown photographers with what are false assumptions about the vast majority of us!  I know that I do not fit your description of those photographers you say have made women feel unsafe.  Have all the women you've met told you this stuff, or are you assuming that this is why they are defensive towards you? 

yoshuaS wrote:
You've turned art into fear because you can't keep your hands and comments to yourselves, and frankly it's getting in my way so fucking stop.

Blaming others for this dramatic experiences that you perceive are getting in your way is ridiculously illogical.  Your approach towards a discussion on how all of us creatives can better help each other be safe is by throwing a blanket attack on people you don't even know.  Putting everyone on the defensive by claiming to know the fear that models have towards photographers is certainly starting off on the wrong foot. Can you simmer down and not be so speedy with assumptions?

Mark Salo wrote:
What did the model release say?

yoshuaS wrote:
Yep, you're exactly who I'm talking about.

He asked a completely legitimate question!

What does your model release say? 

Or are you using one?

yoshuaS wrote:
I find it suspicious how many photographers are finding that they need to defend themselves publicly, or taking offense at my post. If you had nothing to worry about seems like you wouldn't be half as upset about this post as you obviously are.

This is your first post?  We don't know you, nor do you know us. You've made accusations of the bulk of photographers as a whole and expect to do what through your ranting here?  Those photographers that you want to blame for being inappropriate are not the ones who will read this forum and change their ways because you said to.  Like many of the photographers here, I don't need to defend myself.  My very long history, references, portfolio and credentials speak for me.  You and anyone else can check my track record with models.  I like your work, but I'm not going to waste my time vetting you because you've made blanket assumptions about all photographers on the forum.  Maybe you think this will get you more models?

HiResPhotographs wrote:
I've yet to have one of those rude, abrasive responses.

Your rant and responses sounds like projection to me.  So, if anyone is getting in anyone's way, you're doing it to yourself.  You should stop that.    If you are this vulgar, I can see why you're getting the type of responses from models.  Anger management, son.

yoshuaS wrote:
The suspicion, abrasiveness, and aloofness bordering on rudeness when trying to book new talent is really starting to wear on me- but you know what?  It's not their fault, it's yours.

I'm of the opinion your portfolio is often the most important factor on whether or not a model will shoot with you.  If you don't have a good portfolio, then your ability to pay them runs a close second (Models may vary, depending on what their priorities are). 

So, if you're getting rejected for shoots, you have to ask yourself if what you're offering (Talent or money) is worth the model's time and energy.  If you believe it is and you're still getting rejected, then maybe it has nothing to do with all of us; maybe it actually is you.  As the old saying goes:

"If one person calls you a horse, then they're probably crazy.  If three people call you a horse, then maybe it's a conspiracy.  But if ten people call you a horse, well, then perhaps it's time to go shopping for a saddle"

yoshuaS wrote:
I've worked on everything from L'oreal commercials...

Cleaning the bathroom doesn't count..