Abbitt Photography wrote:
I had a self published a book that was a top seller at a local bookstore, but as POD prices increased it eventually became impossible to sell it at a competitive retail price.  I think that’s what you will run into especially with a hard cover book.  Printing costs are such that it’s hard to produce and sell at typical retail prices, meaning you will likely have an expensive niche product, requiring an audience willing to spend top dollar.  So, then the question becomes:  Are you offering something your target audience will pay top dollar for and if so, will it be demanded enough to justify the costs and work to bring it to market?   

A part of this is of course marketing and distribution which are not one and the same.   Having a book available on Amazon doesn’t mean it will sell.   My book was listed on Amazon, but that accounted for a very small fraction of sales.   

I haven’t kept up on Amazon’s self publishing service lately, but I know for color it used to be soft cover only.

You're right, I will need to market it as a high end luxury product and this means a high product quality, so initially it will be a hardback book perhaps with a leather covering, this is an option with Bonusprint. This is what I want. Other services offer options like slipcases and presentation boxes.

I will start by having one book made for myself and take it from there. Later on I may have softcover copies made but my personal preference is for hardback books. I plan to advertise and sell it via ebay, beginning sometime between May and the end of this year. To begin with they will be produced to order. I may offer customer options like a slipcase or leather binding.

I think the main problem with marketing photo books today is the ineptitude of the mainstream publishers, they are for the most part sleepwalkers who know nothing about creative photography and whose only interests are in free luncheons and checks at the end of the month. Not surprisingly, their level of confidence is zero. And approaching them is a PITA when they haven't begun to catch up with information technology.

JSouthworth wrote:
I think the main problem with marketing photo books today is the ineptitude of the mainstream publishers, they are for the most part sleepwalkers who know nothing about creative photography and whose only interests are in free luncheons and checks at the end of the month. Not surprisingly, their level of confidence is zero. And approaching them is a PITA when they haven't begun to catch up with information technology.

I don't think anyone here is surprised at your woefully unrealistic and inaccurate perception about pretty much everything. Your proclamation about the mainstream publishing industry is possibly the apex of your uninformed delusions. I happen to have a little experience with photo driven, mainstream creative book creation and publishing (both in the US and UK for that matter). Your description of the individuals and process of professional publishing is just plain fiction. I don't know if you are just practicing untruthful hyperbole or you just straight don't know your ass from your elbow.

I have done either a significant portion or most of the photography on four books in the past 5 years, including one that I suggested the original concept for. The latest comes out in July and is already available for preorder on Amazon and Barnes&Noble by a major US publisher. Just this week I have been speaking with the author I have been working with on the next books we pitch. The process of developing a concept, making a pitch and delivering the finished creative material is nothing like you describe.

Dan Howell wrote:
I don't think anyone here is surprised at your woefully unrealistic and inaccurate perception about pretty much everything. Your proclamation about the mainstream publishing industry is possibly the apex of your uninformed delusions. I happen to have a little experience with photo driven, mainstream creative book creation and publishing (both in the US and UK for that matter). Your description of the individuals and process of professional publishing is just plain fiction. I don't know if you are just practicing untruthful hyperbole or you just straight don't know your ass from your elbow.

I have done either a significant portion or most of the photography on four books in the past 5 years, including one that I suggested the original concept for. The latest comes out in July and is already available for preorder on Amazon and Barnes&Noble by a major US publisher. Just this week I have been speaking with the author I have been working with on the next books we pitch. The process of developing a concept, making a pitch and delivering the finished creative material is nothing like you describe.

I was referring to the situation in the UK, I don't have experience of publishing in the States.

The fact that most of the UK photography magazines have disappeared in the last few years is symptomatic of a general malaise I think. Or perhaps of an intellectual and creative vacuum. Not that anybody ever took them very seriously.

Looking at your profile, you do mainly commercial fashion and advertising photography which is a step away from what I do. I'm not familiar with the books you mention, although it's difficult to be sure when you haven't told me their titles. I see that on your profile you have links to some articles on a website, this one is quite good I think;

https://fstoppers.com/originals/shoot-a … phy-190422

Light colored sand on a beach can also act effectively as a reflector to soften shadows at midday, according to a Bunny Yeager book I was reading recently.

LightDreams wrote:
I know I'm stating the obvious, but the quality of the work / how many people want to pay (a fairly high price) to have a copy of that work, is rather critical to the success of any such project.

Really, how interesting.

JSouthworth wrote:
I was referring to the situation in the UK, I don't have experience of publishing in the States.

The fact that most of the UK photography magazines have disappeared in the last few years is symptomatic of a general malaise I think. Or perhaps of an intellectual and creative vacuum. Not that anybody ever took them very seriously.

Looking at your profile, you do mainly commercial fashion and advertising photography which is a step away from what I do. I'm not familiar with the books you mention, although it's difficult to be sure when you haven't told me their titles.

You do like to make assumptions based on incomplete information, don't you. In my career I have contributed to more than 20 books, including to glamour photo instructional books--coincidentally written by a UK based author. I have fully illustrated several fashion-oriented books for a US publisher, but I have also completed significant photographic assignments ranging from celebrity, interior, travel and still-life for several other books. But I guess since I didn't put that on my Model Mayhem profile, you're going to know more about publishing books than I do.

The first three of the books I was referring to were published by a UK-based division of Hachette UK, one of the world's largest publishers. I am fully credited in the books which infinitely more important to me than you knowing what they are.

But please do go on believing that professional publishers lack of aesthetics are to blame for your lack of mainstream success and not the quality of your photos.

Dan Howell wrote:
In my career I have contributed to more than 20 books, including to glamour photo instructional books--coincidentally written by a UK based author.
The first three of the books I was referring to were published by a UK-based division of Hachette UK

I have a number of books on photography, but maybe not the ones you refer to. Instructional books are one thing, if you want to do a book which is basically an exhibition of your own work then it's more of a problem to convince a publisher, rightly or wrongly that this is commercially viable.

Another obvious problem is that the greater the number of people involved in producing a book, the higher the costs. I'm learning on the job of editing, I'm finding that each time I look at the project in the app I can see potential improvements. When I can't improve it any more I'll print it.

"The book no German publisher dared print". You may have seen that claim on the cover of a paperback novel, Wheels of Terror by Sven Hassel (real name Børge Willy Redsted Pedersen). After Hans Christian Andersen he's apparently the most successful Danish author ever. Publishers sometimes have their own political agendas which may conflict with yours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven_Hassel

Dan Howell wrote:

I happen to have a little experience with photo driven, mainstream creative book creation and publishing (both in the US and UK for that matter). Your description of the individuals and process of professional publishing is just plain fiction.

As I say I don't have experience of the publishing industry in the US but to talk about creativity of any kind on the part of the UK industry is doing them a favor I think. The level of their thinking is, "Well that book of pictures by (well known photographer active in the 1970s) sold quite well so perhaps we should do another one". The problem with trading on the past is that there is only so much of it.

Dan Howell wrote:
Please stop using the term publishing for what you are doing. You are printing a book or having in printed. There's a difference.

Maybe, or maybe not.

Once I have a book to show to people and sell online, as a physical book or as an online digital version, I may get some interest from major publishers. In the meantime, I'm learning how to design and edit a photo book. Having gained some experience in using the Bonusprint app, which is not difficult to use, I wouldn't trust anyone else to do it because I've seen too many badly done photo books with tiny pictures in the middle of otherwise blank pages.

JSouthworth wrote:
I wouldn't trust anyone else to do it because I've seen too many badly done photo books with tiny pictures in the middle of otherwise blank pages.

You're such a graphic design guru, aren't you. Please let us know when that bubble you are living in bursts. Maybe some around here would have sympathy. Not me per se, but somebody might.

Dan Howell wrote:
You're such a graphic design guru, aren't you.

This brings us back to the problem of most photo books being a compromise at the conceptual and design stages. I'm pretty certain that I can do a better job than most people in the UK publishing industry, especially with my own photography. It isn't even that difficult, the basic rule is to make effective use of the space available. And the Bonusprint app is extremely easy to use, it's much better than the others I've seen. You can enlarge, reduce and move pictures around in seconds.

As I mentioned earlier, the Bonusprint product is of high quality, it's certainly a big improvement over commercially produced softcover books and the Portrait XL, 27 X 36 cm size is a large book with up to 120 pages (mine has 102 pages). The large page size means that you don't really need to use double page spreads in the layout, I only have one.

JSouthworth wrote:
This brings us back to the problem of most photo books being a compromise at the conceptual and design stages. I'm pretty certain that I can do a better job than most people in the UK publishing industry, especially with my own photography..

Just curious. Is there any limit or depth to the bullshit that pours freely out of your keyboard? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you can't hold a candle to even the lowest level professional book designer in the UK. Remember, I have actual first hand experience with UK book publishers (not to be confused with an online printer) unlike yourself. Unless the photos you are printing are vastly different than the photos presented here on your profile, your utter lack of any commercial or respected curatorial success is the least surprising notion of the last decade.

The thing is that you probably honestly believe the utterly false notion that you know what you are doing and probably don't see the vast gulf between your output and the output of successful professionals. That is the crux of the problem. You lack vision. Let me be the 100th to tell you that you don't know how much delusional fiction is in even the two sentenced above and this thread as a whole.

JSouthworth wrote:
If you want a preview of what you can expect from the book I have been posting smaller versions of some pictures from it on DeviantArt, you will need an account (free) to view them, things being the way they are these days;

I stopped signing up for multiple accounts long ago.
Can't you make it available on your website?

Mark Salo wrote:
I stopped signing up for multiple accounts long ago.
Can't you make it available on your website?

I don't have my own website. But eleven of my profile pictures on this site are in the book, in re-edited versions. The picture at left is one of the eleven.

Dan Howell wrote:
Remember, I have actual first hand experience with UK book publishers (not to be confused with an online printer) unlike yourself.

So do I, and most of the ones I've dealt with are hardly worth the time of day, either because they're just too stupid and badly educated to understand anything or alternatively because they're not focused on what they're doing, publishing is something they do between the time they leave university with a degree in English and the time they get married off to somebody in banking or insurance, they're basically there for the London party circuit and their check at the end of the month. And in any case, is it realistic as an artist and photographer to expect other people to be as involved in your work as you are? Not in my experience.

I have a couple a UK published photography books in front of me right now. First up we have Photojournalism; An Essential Guide by David Herrod (2003). This falls flat for the simple reason that the photography in it is abysmal, artistically and technically, proving that the publisher literally didn't know good from bad. The only use for this would be as a door stop.

The other one is The Book of Nude Photography by Michael Boys (1981), one of a series from Ebury press which also includes The Book of Close-Up Photography by Heather Angel and The Book of Special Effects Photography by Michael Langford. This is fortunately much better and there are lots of used copies of this popular book available from internet booksellers, the only problem is that it tries to pack too many pictures into a small 20 X 24 cm format so that some are reproduced very small, the effect is to induce eye strain.

Reading the publisher notes, it seems that the book was designed by Dorling Kindersley in London and reproduced by another company in London, the typesetting was done by a company in Somerset and the book was printed in Italy. That's a lot of people to be paid.

JSouthworth wrote:
I have a couple a UK published photography books in front of me right now. First up we have Photojournalism; An Essential Guide by David Herrod (2003).

I'm going to end this here. You clearly suffer from sour grape syndrome (ie. neverwaser-nevergonnabe). Forum rules prevent me from truly expressing my honest evaluation of your work. However the ideas and proclamations you present here show how woefully uneducated and inexperienced you really are. You are a never ending stream of provably false assertions, somewhat like a bubbler that is plugged into the waste line instead of fresh water.

Dan Howell wrote:
Forum rules prevent me from truly expressing my honest evaluation of your work.

You're entitled to an opinion on my work, just as I have an opinion on yours; it's boring. Clearly, we have different priorities.

JSouthworth wrote:
You're entitled to an opinion on my work, just as I have an opinion on yours; it's boring. Clearly, we have different priorities.

You rail at and malign the professionals that create and publish books for a living, yet one wonders exactly how much money you've made doing it?

We could say that all of your self promoting and grandstanding on this supposed "photo book" of yours is little more than an ego stroking, self printed vanity project. Especially in light of the fact that you have eschewed requesting a critique of the images in your MM portfolio. It would seem to make sense to ask for one (a critique) in light of the fact (supplied by you) that eleven of those images are to be in your "photo book" and the investment you're only to happy to blather on about on an almost daily basis here. Although based on your forum history making sense is something that often seems elusive in your posts..

It truly makes one wonder what you're afraid of? While not providing a critique of either portfolio and since you opened the door with your "boring" opinion of Dan Howell's portfolio, I would say that in my opinion Dan's priority is that of creating quality, evocative well crafted imagery, I'm not sure what if anything you're trying to do.

JQuest wrote:
You rail at and malign the professionals that create and publish books for a living, yet one wonders exactly how much money you've made doing it?

If that is your measure of success then you should look for a job in banking, or something in the financial sector.

It is possible to make a living from photography, if you provide a service to other people in the fashion industry, for example. And I have a handle on that, to the extent that I make or sometimes modify clothes, shoes and accessories for use in my photo shoots.

There are definitely major advantages to designing and printing your own photo book using a service like Bonusprint, over approaching a publisher. One is the time factor; major publishers plan their output four or five years ahead. And perhaps more importantly, you don't need to compromise over design and content. Why not give it a try?

JSouthworth wrote:
JQuest wrote:
You rail at and malign the professionals that create and publish books for a living, yet one wonders exactly how much money you've made doing it?

JSouthworth wrote:
If that is your measure of success then you should look for a job in banking, or something in the financial sector.

My measure of success in any field is that individuals be be able to profit enough from what they are doing to enjoy  living comfortably with financial security. I'm uncertain why you harbor such animosity and anger towards people that do just that. I also wonder why you didn't answer the question I asked?

JSouthworth wrote:
It is possible to make a living from photography, if you provide a service to other people in the fashion industry, for example. And I have a handle on that, to the extent that I make or sometimes modify clothes, shoes and accessories for use in my photo shoots.

I disagree with your assertion that someone who has a hobby creating/modifying props for their other photography hobby is able to  then claim they are "making a living" from photography. Your examples do not support your conclusion at all, however I respect your right to that opinion.

JSouthworth wrote:
There are definitely major advantages to designing and printing your own photo book using a service like Bonusprint, over approaching a publisher. One is the time factor; major publishers plan their output four or five years ahead. And perhaps more importantly, you don't need to compromise over design and content. Why not give it a try?

You're missing the point, major publishers pay their talent to create, their talent does not pay them. Unless of course all you are interested in is being able to feebly try and impress people by claiming that you're a published photographer, without then telling them that you paid for your project. A process that in the opinion of many is viewed as nothing more than a self important, vanity project. Especially by people that actually get paid for these types of books.

It looks as if the oldest image you have uploaded to MM was in 2018 and it only has 385 views and know one has to pay to look at it. People aren't exactly blowing up your MM portfolio with views and comments. So I'm left wondering just who you think you're marketing your "photo book" to?  It's not much different than putting your images on Onlyfans and hoping someone/anyone is interested enough to take look. Except the Onlyfans photographers have actually one upped you, they're not paying up front for their images to be displayed. It's very doubtful that you will recoup the cost of your "photo book", however if it works out for you and you break even or better yet get rich that's awesome. Good luck with your endeavor.

JSouthworth wrote:
If that is your measure of success then you should look for a job in banking, or something in the financial sector.

It is possible to make a living from photography, if you provide a service to other people in the fashion industry, for example. And I have a handle on that, to the extent that I make or sometimes modify clothes, shoes and accessories for use in my photo shoots.

There are definitely major advantages to designing and printing your own photo book using a service like Bonusprint, over approaching a publisher. One is the time factor; major publishers plan their output four or five years ahead. And perhaps more importantly, you don't need to compromise over design and content. Why not give it a try?

Another advantage of self-publishing is that you retain copyright, whereas in any kind of deal with a publisher you have to sign over the rights to your work in exchange for a percentage from the sales, which at most will be 10 to 12%.

Looking at the problem of book design in a fairly abstract way, the object is to achieve a high level of integration of the design and content of the book, or the design and the photography in the case of a photo book.

A number of photo books I've seen suffer from design which is self-consciously "arty" (eg, tiny pictures in the middle of otherwise blank pages) gimmicky (eg, pictures at odd angles overlapping each other, like prints piled on a desk) or flashy (unnecessary graphics, text on black, grey or coloured backgrounds making it difficult to read). Obviously you don't want the design of a photo book to compete with or distract from the photography, so I have avoided this problem in my own book by keeping things simple.

JQuest wrote:
We could say that all of your self promoting and grandstanding on this supposed "photo book" of yours is little more than an ego stroking, self printed vanity project.

Vanity publishing is the term used to describe a situation where the author of a book pays a publisher in advance, an agreed sum to cover the cost of producing the book including the printing costs, as well as handing over the rights to their work to the publisher, usually in return for a low percentage of sales.

Self publishing, on the other hand essentially means that you produce the book yourself and then have it printed without the involvement of a publisher. Since you are the only person involved in the production of the book, you will have indisputable sole rights to your work. Of course, you have to handle the whole process of designing and editing the book yourself. Not necessarily a big problem with the online apps now available, the Bonusprint one is particularly good;

https://www.bonusprint.co.uk/?utm_campa … d3d7fa89f6

JQuest wrote:
You're paying Bonus Print to print your "photo book" we could say that in reality it's little more than digital scrap booking. There's nothing wrong with that, however for you to tout it as something other than what it is by maligning others that have actually been paid for their work is disingenuous Bonus Print isn't not paying you.

What? They're not paying me anything, I'm paying them to print my books. And I don't have the time for a dumb-assed, off-topic argument with you.

Getting back to self-publishing, the Bonusprint app is good because it allows you to design full page pictures and double page spreads without problems. With some others, you can't do either.

Double page spreads are maybe not essential, you effectively lose some of the picture in the fold unless you pay extra for lay-flat binding but the ability to use full page photographs in the layout is a big advantage I think.

JSouthworth wrote:
What? They're not paying me anything, I'm paying them to print my books.[/b] And I don't have the time for a dumb-assed, off-topic argument with you.

Read what I wrote again and tell me what part about you paying to have your hobby project created that you didn't understand; "You're paying Bonus Print to print your "photo book" . Unfortunately I did inadvertantly leave a "not" in one sentence that should have been removed when I proofread my post, I missed it, and for that I apologize. However the first sentence stands by itself and is completely clear within the entire context of the post and the point I was making and in several of the previous posts I made. You chose to ignore it even though you quoted it. Your false indignation is duly noted.

In regard to what I was saying being off-topic, no, not at all, my responses to you are completely about what you've written and your "photo book". If you didn't want to have to engage in an honest discussion about its merits then you should have posted it where it belongs in Accomplishments, Achievements and High Fives when you were finished with it, rather than attempt to hijack Sara's thread there and create your own here. I'm sorry if the truth about your project cuts a little close to home.

The rest of your post provides no new information except to affirm that Bonusprint is a good app for creating all of ones home digital scrap booking needs. A resource that I would certainly entertain using should I ever feel the need to create my own vanity photo project.

Once again, good luck with your endeavor. I honestly hope it accomplishes what you want it to.

JQuest wrote:
You're paying Bonus Print to print your "photo book" we could say that in reality it's little more than digital scrap booking. There's nothing wrong with that, however for you to tout it as something other than what it is by maligning others that have actually been paid for their work is disingenuous Bonus Print isn't not paying you. You're free to present your hobby however you wish in order to justify what you're doing to yourself. Just be aware that all of us here are acutely aware that stay at home moms, angst ridden teenagers, or anyone with a smart phone full of pictures can do exactly the same thing you're doing and none of them are trying to convince anyone else that their creations are better or smarter than a professionally published book. You're the only one I've heard doing that, and as I said earlier that's fine, but it's still nothing more than a keepsake project at best, and a self indulgent vanity project at worst. Good luck with your endeavor.

What he is actually saying, is that even vanity publishers would not take a chance on his project, so there was only the self-publishing option, incurring all the expenses and risks involved himself. He calls this an "advantage".

Note that the motivation for his photobook; "I'm putting together a book of my work, initially as a record for myself but ideally I would like to market it commercially", is devoid of any artistic or in-depth inspiration, but instead replete with endless minutiae and nuts snd bolts of self-printing a scrapbook "record." NOTHING about a theme, a philosophy, or anything other than marketing tactics and irrelevant options like leather binding and slipcovers as inducements to purchase his personal scrapbook.

Not satisfied with creating a vanity thread as an excuse to tout his vanity project, he then has the colossal audacity and ego to insinuate and associate himself onto the effort of another member who is actually producing a quality project, claiming "Sara and I have something in common, which is that we're both trying to get a book published." An association apparently quickly discarded :

"I'm pretty confident that the book I have now will lay waste to all competition, if there is any competition." So much for Sara's project, I guess.

As you say, "Good luck with your endeavor."

JQuest wrote:
Read what I wrote again and tell me what part about you paying to have your hobby project created that you didn't understand;

Obviously I have to pay for the printing of the books. Yes, it would be nice if they did that for free. But they do offer good value with the discounts available. So far I have printed three copies at a total cost of about £210.00, thereby enabling me to develop the definitive book. That is the entire financial outlay involved on my part.

In the future, the book will be printed to order so when a buyer orders a copy online and I receive payment, I will order a copy from the printer and they will send it directly to the buyer. In the UK the book will arrive about a week after the order is placed.

JSouthworth wrote:
What? They're not paying me anything, I'm paying them to print my books. And I don't have the time for a dumb-assed, off-topic argument with you.

Getting back to self-publishing, the Bonusprint app is good because it allows you to design full page pictures and double page spreads without problems. With some others, you can't do either.

Double page spreads are maybe not essential, you effectively lose some of the picture in the fold unless you pay extra for lay-flat binding but the ability to use full page photographs in the layout is a big advantage I think.

In editing pictures for printing, you need to allow for the lower contrast of a printed image compared with an image on a computer screen. Most of the book printing service apps have an automatic image enhancement facility, but as with similar facilities in computer editing suites, you're advised not to rely on them because they only work well with certain types of image. My guess is that someone with experience of computer editing would get good results with a little practice.

Studio NSFW wrote:
If only there was a *Print Standard*  that you could tune your output files for!

And some file format that would embed the CMYK metadata right into the file…

I’m sure this endeavor will teach you much.

Serious publishers actually have a “pre-press “ person whose job is to tune files to the specific paper stock being used….you only need to give them a good starting place with a properly prepared file.

With Bonusprint you have two paper options, normal or high gloss, which costs more and is claimed to give your pictures more contrast but the standard paper is quite good, it's heavyweight quality paper with a semi-gloss finish and I can't find fault with their printing. Some other companies offer more paper options;

https://www.cewe.co.uk/photo-books.html#45

Technical perfection is not as important to me as producing a book that people will want to look at, I think there is always a danger of over-emphasising technical aspects at the expense of creativity and spontaneity in photography.

JSouthworth wrote:
In editing pictures for printing, you need to allow for the lower contrast of a printed image compared with an image on a computer screen. Most of the book printing service apps have an automatic image enhancement facility, but as with similar facilities in computer editing suites, you're advised not to rely on them because they only work well with certain types of image. My guess is that someone with experience of computer editing would get good results with a little practice.

JSouthworth wrote:
I'm pretty certain that I can do a better job than most people in the UK publishing industry, especially with my own photography.

JSouthworth wrote:
Technical perfection is not as important to me as producing a book that people will want to look at, I think there is always a danger of over-emphasising technical aspects at the expense of creativity and spontaneity in photography.

You seem conflicted…you post about how you find you need to adjust contrast to compensate for printing, and are very sure you are better than people in the printing industry, but then technical perfection is unimportant…

Hate to break it to you, but printing is a technical, not a creative, process.   Layout and design, typesetting, photography etc are creative processes but by the time the file/layout/lith/halftone or whatever is committed to ink and paper through a press, creativity has ended-printing is a repeatable, mechanical process that emphasizes precision.

It’s neato that you found a website that lets you play with layout and will let you twiddle knobs on an RGB monitor tho. Maybe with another 10 iterations of your masterwork it will look like what you think it should.