Chris Keeling wrote:
Good for you, you're not as lazy as I am.    And more girls do try to emulate those types of bodies, hence the eating disorders, and this discussion.

How is trying to emulate this body type a direct cause of an eating disorder?


If anything, emulating that type of body would result in proper diet and exercise.

Dave Wright

Brian Ziff wrote:
Nick is 100% right about this.

Being thin is a requisite in the fashion industry.  The vast majority of girls suffering and even dying of eating disorders are not models.  As far as putting in some kind of effort to remain slim, you will find that most girls diet to some degree.  It's no different with fashion models.  If they weren't naturally skinny, they wouldn't be candidates for their chosen profession.

Of course, in any sample, there are outliers, and you'll find that it's those at the very ends of the bell curve that make headlines.

Again, to me the issue isn't the outlying models who die from Eating Disorders, it's the people in the General Populace they influence.

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:

How is trying to emulate this body type a direct cause of an eating disorder?


If anything, emulating that type of body would result in proper diet and exercise.

You'd think wouldn't you?  Unfortunately you nor I will ever be able to get in the head of a 14 yr. old girl.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:

Barry M Robinson wrote:
The local CTV station in Toronto aired this piece today. I found it on the web at:

Model Killer: Dying to be Thin. (dated Nov 16, 2007 you can see the video online) The story is about Israeli fashion photographer Adi Barkan who has been on a campaign to prevent eating disorders in fashion models. One of the models he has worked with, Hila Elmalich, died on Wednesday weighing only 66 pounds.

For another take on models and eating disorders see UW study dispels common myth about models and eating disorders from the University of Waterloo

A genetic link to anorexia

No normal adult is a model at 66 pounds.

my 6 year old son is 4 1/2 feet tall and weighs 85lbs

Chris Keeling wrote:
Listen, girls get Eating Disorders for a number of reasons.  It might be because of a Chemical Imbalance.  It might be because of the girl in her History Class who's thinner than her and going out with the guy she wants.  It might be because she wants thinks models are glamorous and wants to be like them.  Eliminating the Fashion World wouldn't eliminate the problem.  But to think that the Fashion World isn't a huge contributor to Eating Disorders Nationwide is just plain Naive!   Do I think that Nick Zantop can change the world if he has an epiphany?  No.  He's just playing by the rules given him.  But don't come in a Forum discussion and say the problem isn't real, or huge, because it is.

for the second time, can you show me the scientific research that has proven your point?  Or, are you just making linkages without proof?   Seems to me that folks making linkages like this have, throughout history vilified (or enslaved) other ethnic groups or religions --- after all, the problem with (ethnic Group A) is that they are just lazy drunkards and dullards --- just look at them --- my god, don't be naive -- just look at them -- all drunks.

Ah, any proof?

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:
I'm beginning to think Chris has no experience in psychology, little to no understanding via personal experience OR education in eating disorders or body dysmorphia, or really any idea what the hell he's talking about.

A friend of mine used to have a pin that said,
"I refuse to have a battle of the wits with an unarmed opponent."

Chris, what's the connection between the fashion industry and eating disorders?
Break it down for us.

Oops, Dave wants credit too.  Nick and Dave have convinced me. 

Digitoxin wrote:

for the second time, can you show me the scientific research that has proven your point?  Or, are you just making linkages without proof?   Seems to me that folks making linkages like this have, throughout history vilified (or enslaved) other ethnic groups or religions --- after all, the problem with (ethnic Group A) is that they are just lazy drunkards and dullards --- just look at them --- my god, don't be naive -- just look at them -- all drunks.

Ah, any proof?

For the third time, yes I'm too lazy, I've admitted this.  Chris Keeling....Enslaver of Ethnic Groups and Religions (and the poor oppressed Fashion Industry)

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:

i typed "runway 2007" into google image search. here are a few of the results:







i'm going to make a shocking claim:
i think that more girls should try to emulate these types of bodies.
they're beautiful, fit, trim, and healthy.

I'm gonna quote you because the girls in these photos need to be seen again. Not one of them looks like they are dying from starvation.

Special Ed wrote:

I'm gonna quote you because the girls in these photos need to be seen again. Not one of them looks like they are dying from starvation.

Quoting statistic and images that say only a handfull of Fashion Models have died of eating disorders, is an absolutely irrelevant defense.  I am not talking about the effect on Fashion Models, I am talking about the effect on the tweens and teens who try to emulate them, and again, to deny that the Fashion Industry doesn't have an effect on those girls in naive.

Digitoxin wrote:
for the second time, can you show me the scientific research that has proven your point?  Or, are you just making linkages without proof?   Seems to me that folks making linkages like this have, throughout history vilified (or enslaved) other ethnic groups or religions --- after all, the problem with (ethnic Group A) is that they are just lazy drunkards and dullards --- just look at them --- my god, don't be naive -- just look at them -- all drunks.

Ah, any proof?

Chris Keeling wrote:
For the third time, yes I'm too lazy, I've admitted this.  Chris Keeling....Enslaver of Ethnic Groups and Religions (and the poor oppressed Fashion Industry)

OK, then I will help you.  It is my understanding (although I could easily be wrong) that there has not been a scientific study that has concluded that very thin models and the ads in which they appear (i.e. the amorphous "Fashion World" you speak of) have any effect on eating disorders in society at large.

Perhaps there are some studies that do find this causality.  Perhaps not.  But, I would not be so bold as to make the statement that there is causality.

GWC wrote:
u can't prevent it by removing thin people from a sufferer's view

qft.

Nick Zantop wrote:

And from another fashion week:


What? More healthy looking models? weird.

What? No way!!!

Sinistre wrote:
I kinda wish this phase was over..

It's unfortunate.. and a crazy issue.

I believe I have an eating disorder..

I binge like crazy cuz I think I'm TOO SKINNY LMAO *dead serious too*

I have a retarded metabolism.. and always want to gain weight.. even had a baby gained 60 pounds and went back down to my pre-baby weight. Ugh, I hate it..

I want to be thicker..

I have a friend like that who despises eating out because theres always some jerk (generally female) who will make a derogatory comment about how she must be bulimic to be that thin. I'm Vegan so I generally stay at the same weight but have to eat constantly to maintain it.

   You look great - lets go hit up Souplantation, food for you, food for me FOOD FIGHT?

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:

i typed "runway 2007" into google image search. here are a few of the results:







i'm going to make a shocking claim:
i think that more girls should try to emulate these types of bodies.
they're beautiful, fit, trim, and healthy.

I love these model's body's.
They are healthy looking
and it makes me feel better about mine.
Very inspiring




Thank you for finding this david . ..

now back to the point of this thread

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:
That photo is from an article about ultra-thin models, which means it's the exception, not the rule.

Sensationalism.

It's a pretty simple concept.

Visit this forum and you will find tons of models that are super thin. They also discuss celebs: http://www.thefashionspot.com/forums/f6 … 53149.html

I am happy to see healthier model on the runaway but we all know it is not the norm.

Raica wrote:
I am happy to see healthier model on the runaway but we all know it is not the norm.

Wrong.

Designers don't put unhealthy models on the runway. They put healthy, tall, slender, beautiful models on the runway.

Putting unhealthy models on the runway would not help sales.

Dave Wright

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:

Wrong.

Designers don't put unhealthy models on the runway. They put healthy, tall, slender, beautiful models on the runway.

Putting unhealthy models on the runway would not be help sales.

You didn't click on the link did you?

Dave Wright Photo SF wrote:

Wrong.

Designers don't put unhealthy models on the runway. They put healthy, tall, slender, beautiful models on the runway.

Putting unhealthy models on the runway would not be help sales.

right.

Chris Keeling wrote:

Quoting statistic and images that say only a handfull of Fashion Models have died of eating disorders, is an absolutely irrelevant defense.  I am not talking about the effect on Fashion Models, I am talking about the effect on the tweens and teens who try to emulate them, and again, to deny that the Fashion Industry doesn't have an effect on those girls in naive.

Okay, how many people die or get injured trying to do stunts and extreme sports? Is it the TV shows that are to blame because they air the shows where kids watch and try to emulate on their own?  Maybe it's the magazines where the "Pros" are glorified for what they do?

Special Ed wrote:

Okay, how many people die or get injured trying to do stunts and extreme sports? Is it the TV shows that are to blame because they air the shows where kids watch and try to emulate on their own?  Maybe it's the magazines where the "Pros" are glorified for what they do?

Well, I guess as long as someone else is doing it too, it's okay.  After all, 2 wrongs make a right!  Right?

Nancy Catherine wrote:
For what it's worth the British Medical Association conducted a study in 2000 linking young womens views of body image to what they see in ads.

Here's the press release article.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/769290.stm

That's a good study. But - note - "body image" and obsessive-compulsive disorders are not the same thing. One is a behavioral and social problem while the other is a neurological condition.

Put another way: seeing people acting angry on TV does not cause bipolar disorder. Just because a problem expresses itself around the same issue does not mean they are related.

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:
A few comments, if I may. My degree is in psychology and we spent a while studying anorexia in abnormal psych when I was an undergrad. Circa 1985 (when I was a senior) anorexia was believed to be a behavioral problem, but current research does indicate that it's very closely linked with obsessive-compulsive disorder - in fact, it's basically just another form of obsessive-compulsive disorder. What's interesting about OCD sufferers is that they appear to be genetically predisposed to a neurological condition in which they latch onto something and can no longer control it. It could be body image, or hand-washing, or lining things up, agoraphobia, or eating one's own hair, or any of a host of other "triggers."  The problem is that the potential OCD sufferer is basically carrying around a neurological time-bomb that's waiting to go off based on their dopamine/serotonin levels.

There's also a huge difference between clinically diagnosed anorexia and "body issues."  True anorexia is a serious problem, where as having "body issues" is a fairly typical part of being female. There are actually good reasons rooted in evolutionary biology for why females are going to worry about their appearance - whether they can do anything about it, and regardless of the significance of the popular standards of beauty at the time. For example, women in the 18th century were extremely concerned about not getting freckles - to the point of going to extreme lengths to avoid sun, bleaching the skin, etc., all of which could be carried to extremes.

Final observation: the "monkey see monkey do" argument "see thin models, want to be thin, become anorexic" is not very well-supported. In fact, it's the same argument that some people put forward hypothesizing that violent video games result in violent children (which is why violent crime rates in this country have been dropping consistently since the early 1990s) - the "monkey see monkey do" argument is usually only supported by hand-waving. It sort of makes intuitive sense to think that a psychologically fragile young woman might develop a weight obsession from seeing a thin model - but it's actually almost certain that every girl likely to obsess about her weight has been doing so since puberty and likely before.

GWC appears to be right (though he's kind of incoherent) about the fact that anorexia can often be cured with antipsychotic drugs. Do your own reasearch - google "anorexia antipsychotic obsessive compulsive" and there's tons of literature out there on the topic. These are not opinions, these are controlled clinical results - and I think we should give more weight to controlled clinical results than to "monkey see monkey do" theories. Particularly regarding the relationship between anorexia and obsessive-compulsive disorder. If you've got a problem, and it triggers like OCD, acts like an OCD, and is treatable with the same (MAOI inhibitors, mostly) drugs - it's probably an OCD. "Monkey see monkey do" has no relationship to OCD at all, other than that its sufferers are going to trigger on something, no matter what it is.

The topic of anorexia is very emotionally fraught for many people, but if you actually read about the mortality rates, you'll quickly conclude that society has got more important things to worry about.

So see Nick, the Fashion Industry really doesn't have anything to do with women's low self worth or Eating Disorders.  I was wrong, and you were right!  Marcus says so.