Marcus J. Ranum wrote:
Oh, and if I may - to head off the inevitable discussion of "Body Mass Index"...

Before you put any stock in BMI you should research the "science" behind it. Briefly it goes as follows: this Belgian guy named Quetelet in the mid 1800s thought it would be a good idea to have an "ideal height/weight chart" - so he made one. The way he did it was he took a bunch of his friends that he thought were especially well-proportioned and averaged them and grouped them by height. This provided an "ideal height/weight" (or, more precisely, "Quetelet's opinion") which was turned into "body mass index" (BMI) in the 1980s by turning Quetelet's chart into a curve-fitted formula.

In other words, it looks like science but it is complete and utter bullsh*t.

God damn you know a lot of shit!

Bob Randall Photography wrote:

God damn you know a lot of shit!

He is pretty impressive isn't he?  I was just kidding Nick about having convinced me, but I think this guy actually did!

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:
Final observation: the "monkey see monkey do" argument "see thin models, want to be thin, become anorexic" is not very well-supported. In fact, it's the same argument that some people put forward hypothesizing that violent video games result in violent children (which is why violent crime rates in this country have been dropping consistently since the early 1990s) - the "monkey see monkey do" argument is usually only supported by hand-waving. It sort of makes intuitive sense to think that a psychologically fragile young woman might develop a weight obsession from seeing a thin model - but it's actually almost certain that every girl likely to obsess about her weight has been doing so since puberty and likely before.

Thanks, Marcus.

Dave Wright

Chris Keeling wrote:

Well, I guess as long as someone else is doing it too, it's okay.  After all, 2 wrongs make a right!  Right?

No, but the simple point being that kids are influenced by what they see and are interested in. Some just don't go about it correctly. For instance, how many bodybuilders are dying from Steroid and other body enhancing drugs? Yet young bodybuilders will see these guys and gals on TV and in magazines and for those who cannot look the same as their idols turn to unatural and unhealthy solutions to get the results.

Chris Keeling wrote:
the Fashion Industry really doesn't have anything to do with women's low self worth or Eating Disorders.

I didn't say that.

"Self-worth" is an intangible term used in pop psychology. I don't know how you can measure it and neither does anyone else.

Eating disorders are clinically diagnosable conditions. BTW - just thinking you are too fat or too thin or occasionally slam dieting or inducing vomiting are not necessarily eating disorders.

My observation is that many women are going to have "self esteem"/"self worth" "issues" regardless of any specific trigger. It could be a sister telling a girl she's fat, or a boyfriend dumping her, or - yes - maybe envying the appearance of another girl. There are so many possible triggers that it's silly to point at any one in particular. I remember when I was a kid my mom was reading to us from an 18th century diary she was translating and the lady who wrote it was deeply concerned about all kind of issues of her own appearance, the size of her breasts, etc. Very interesting. Because the "fashion industry" didn't exist yet.

Guys have the same "issues" but are socialized not to talk about them. Where women are acculturated to want to be attractive, men are acculturated to want to be successful. Women get fear of aging and losing their potential value as mates, and men get fear of failure and losing their potential to attract females. This stuff is all rooted in millions of years of evolutionary biology - not in some silly crap girls see on TV or in a magazine. It goes much much deeper than that.

Basically: if you're human, be prepared to periodically be deeply unsatisfied with yourself.

It's normal.

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

I didn't say that.

No, you didn't, but Nick did.  And that is my whole argument.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
God damn you know a lot of shit!

I love science and I have a really weird memory.

The BMI thing stuck in my mind after a thread on that topic on MM last year. Everyone was going on and on about the BMI and it made me wonder, "where did that formula come from?"   So I researched it. I love researching stuff. Especially science stuff.  And, you can imagine (as a guy who loves science) how horrified I was when I discovered that BMI was just a bunch of pseudoscience that everyone treats as if it's holy writ.

I know you're only a bit older than I am. But remember those ideal height/weight charts we had when we were kids? They used to have them in the school nurse's office, by the scale? That's Quetelet's chart!!!!  It's "ideal height/weight if you're a Belgian friend of Quetelet in 1850!" is what it is!!  So the BMI guys wanted to have something that looked lots more scientific and fitted it to a formula instead.

When I stumble across stuff like this it makes me so damn angry I never forget it.

By the way, Quetelet was one of the short-lived movement of social/"scientists" who wanted to apply statistics to identify broad trends in humans. It was a French scientist of that same movement who invented the "IQ test" - another monstrosity of pseudoscience.*

(* the first IQ tests actually weren't unscientific because all their inventor did was map questions to answers to probability of academic success - a clever and potentially useful approach. but the test - go figure - got used wrong. probability of academic success is not the same thing as "intelligence"; it's just the probability of academic success. if you think about it this way: a kid who gets 9 out of 10 math questions right is likely to do better in math than a kid who gets 1 out of 10 right....)

RachelRavage wrote:
I searched google for photos and got these

OMG these pics break my heart......

bodyfitt wrote:
OMG these pics break my heart......

Fake. Photoshopped.

bodyfitt wrote:

OMG these pics break my heart......

The bottom one is a fake that was manipulated in photoshop. Look at the crappy work on her left shoulder.

Here's the original:


There are a large number of photo-manipulated "skinny model" fake pictures. Don't fall for them.

Snopes has a page of them:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/models.asp

It freaks me out that people are so hot under the collar about this issue that they'd do things like photomanipulate fake "evidence" to bolster their case. I mean, who's really sick, here? The obssession about other people obsessing about fat is really f*cking weird.

bodyfitt wrote:
OMG these pics break my heart......

Ummm, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you cannot tell an obviously over photoshopped image can you?




For more images on the subject, take look here....

http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/models.asp#photo7

rp_photo wrote:
From now on, models will require dietary escorts to make sure they eat enough.

Actually, having a mandatory health check could help. Make the girls go through a physical that includes a fitness test.

Surfvixen wrote:
[Insert two cents here]
1) why is it that the majority of people commenting on this forum topic are male photographers, who, I venture to guess, don't have an eating disorder/haven't dealt with one (aside from models they've photographed)/ do not have a medical degree or educational background to even begin to understand what's going on
2) I think it's far-fetched and blind to believe the fashion industry has no impact on pre-pubescent/teenage girls and boys body image... it's actually a far reaching impact and more or less detrimental, and if you refuse to believe that, you refuse to look at reality
3) There are a variety of reasons and underlying issues which contribute to eating disorders. yes it's pathologic and yes there's genetic ties and yes social views do contribute to them. if you actually ask (and probably have to do a pyschological evaluation) someone with an eating disorder, it's not a simple little quirk you can switch on or off
4) BMIs are basically worth shit. If you exercise to any extent, it doesn't apply to you because muscle weighs more than fat, so your BMI on an typical chart isn't applicable.
5) I'm more or less just really annoyed by the complacency of some people to turn a blind eye on an issue that is all around them. But, such is the world and in specific, the industry.
As always, I'm sure someone will have an smartass and more than likely ignorant reply to this...

Would saying you're hot be a smartass answer???

Special Ed wrote:
Actually, having a mandatory health check could help. Make the girls go through a physical that includes a fitness test.

Screw that! Have a fitness requirement. Make 'em run 3 miles in 20 minutes, do 20 push-ups, and 50 sit-ups.

I like my models skinny, lanky, and tight - so I'd be perfectly happy to see a bit of muscle on 'em.

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

Screw that! Have a fitness requirement. Make 'em run 3 miles in 20 minutes, do 20 push-ups, and 50 sit-ups.

I like my models skinny, lanky, and tight - so I'd be perfectly happy to see a bit of muscle on 'em.

Sounds fun. Never thought it could happen, but I miss PE.

Surfvixen wrote:
2) I think it's far-fetched and blind to believe the fashion industry has no impact on pre-pubescent/teenage girls and boys body image...

I'm sure it does. So does TV, other kids in school, books, magazines, internet porn - basically everything. Blaming the fashion industry for people's body image problems is just flat-out dumb.

Surfvixen wrote:
(long post)

As always, I'm sure someone will have an smartass and more than likely ignorant reply to this...

"Here's what I have to say, and anyone who replies is an ignorant smartass!"

Please.

Dave Wright

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

Screw that! Have a fitness requirement. Make 'em run 3 miles in 20 minutes, do 20 push-ups, and 50 sit-ups.

I like my models skinny, lanky, and tight - so I'd be perfectly happy to see a bit of muscle on 'em.

3 miles in 20 minutes may seem excessive. I'd be hapy to see them finish one without stopping and resting in the middle somewhere.

I was taking a couple college classes at 32yrs old, One was P.E. We had to run the mile one day and  I outran all but 3 other kids. Some didn't even make the mile within a half hour. This is in no way any sense of bragging. I don't work out everyday... not even every week.  Just pointing out that too many kids are to lazy to do things correctly So instead of going to the gym and working out and eating a heathy diet, these girls would rather starve themselves.    Sad

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

I'm sure it does. So does TV, other kids in school, books, magazines, internet porn - basically everything. Blaming the fashion industry for people's body image problems is just flat-out dumb.

No, it's not dumb.  Just because other things do it too, doesn't excuse you.  Look over there while I get my knife out to stab you, is not a valid defense.

Special Ed wrote:

Would saying you're hot be a smartass answer???

She is kinda hot!

Special Ed wrote:
3 miles in 20 minutes may seem excessive. I'd be hapy to see them finish one without stopping and resting in the middle somewhere.

I was taking a couple college classes at 32yrs old, One was P.E. We had to run the mile one day and  I outran all but 3 other kids. Some didn't even make the mile within a half hour. This is in no way any sense of bragging. I don't work out everyday... not even every week.  Just pointing out that too many kids are to lazy to do things correctly So instead of going to the gym and working out and eating a heathy diet, these girls would rather starve themselves.    Sad

I couldn't do it in 20 minutes without stopping, but I would attempt it. I don't remember my run times in high school, but I know at the I hated running back then. I have asthma, so that also makes it a little difficult.

I need to work out more. Just cardio type of stuff. And I want to gain a little muscle, last thing I want to do is lose weight.

And yes...if only they'd put down the cheese fries and soda's and eat a salad and drink a juice instead of starving. May hate it at first, but after a while you're going to feel really good. It would help also if the school's would serve more healthy food. There was more fatty fast food served than anything else when I was at school.

Chris Keeling wrote:

No, it's not dumb.  Just because other things do it too, doesn't excuse you.  Look over there while I get my knife out to stab you, is not a valid defense.

To blame it soley on the fashion industry is dumb. Which unfortunatly too many people are doing.

How about Gymnastics? When was the last headlines about how they are starving themselves aired? Sure it gets talked about, but fashion is so glamorous to talk about so it gets the headlines and thus the herds of sheep (people) follow along and point fingers directly at the fashion world.

Memi Haute wrote:

I couldn't do it in 20 minutes without stopping, but I would attempt it. I don't remember my run times in high school, but I know at the I hated running back then. I have asthma, so that also makes it a little difficult.

I need to work out more. Just cardio type of stuff. And I want to gain a little muscle, last thing I want to do is lose weight.

And yes...if only they'd put down the cheese fries and soda's and eat a salad and drink a juice instead of starving. May hate it at first, but after a while you're going to feel really good. It would help also if the school's would serve more healthy food. There was more fatty fast food served than anything else when I was at school.

You could easily put on 5 pounds of muscle and look great doing it!!!

As for the school food.... As long as they don't take away Pizza Fridays!!!

Seriously though, not only could they serve more nutritous food, but it could be prepared better. I hear my Neice tell me how bad the food is in school that she skips on lunch and eats some form of frozen thing when she gets home. Hard to beleive that a Hot Pocket can taste better than anything. I had one and not only did it taste bad, but it gave me the shits for more than a day!!!

Special Ed wrote:

To blame it soley on the fashion industry is dumb. Which unfortunatly too many people are doing.

How about Gymnastics? When was the last headlines about how they are starving themselves aired? Sure it gets talked about, but fashion is so glamorous to talk about so it gets the headlines and thus the herds of sheep (people) follow along and point fingers directly at the fashion world.

Read through my posts in this thread, I have said at least 3 times that there are many factors, not just the Fashion Industry.  My whole reason for following this thread is that the Fashion Industry says "It's not us!"  They deny deny deny.

Chris Keeling wrote:
My whole reason for following this thread is that the Fashion Industry says "It's not us!"  They deny deny deny.

Ok, then your reason is gone. Clinical life-threatening Anorexia is a neurological disorder, not a behavioral problem. Furthermore, it appears to be strongly influenced by genetics and is a form of obsessive-compulsive disorder.

The fashion industry is not causing obsessive-compulsive disorders or otherwise altering the brain chemistry of models, or anyone else for that matter.

Go do some research and stop just spouting whatever politically correct dogma you're being fed.

Chris Keeling wrote:

Read through my posts in this thread, I have said at least 3 times that there are many factors, not just the Fashion Industry.  My whole reason for following this thread is that the Fashion Industry says "It's not us!"  They deny deny deny.

I hear ya, I'm not saying the fashion industry isn't partialy to blame. Just not the only one to blame.

P.S... Check out Allison above, she's pretty hot as well!

Special Ed wrote:

I hear ya, I'm not saying the fashion industry isn't partialy to blame. Just not the only one to blame.

P.S... Check out Allison above, she's pretty hot as well!

We agree on both your points, about the Fashion Industry and Allison! 

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

Ok, then your reason is gone. Clinical life-threatening Anorexia is a neurological disorder, not a behavioral problem. Furthermore, it appears to be strongly influenced by genetics and is a form of obsessive-compulsive disorder.

The fashion industry is not causing obsessive-compulsive disorders or otherwise altering the brain chemistry of models, or anyone else for that matter.

Go do some research and stop just spouting whatever politically correct dogma you're being fed.

I'm not being fed a damn thing.  1 + 1 = 2 in my book, I came up with my theories all on my own.  You talking about semantics does absolutely nothing to change my mind about anything I've said.  Your research, and self proclaimed memory and love of science is just an impressive way of being wrong about this discussion.  The Fashion Industry IS a contributing Factor, and quoting studies that fit your point doesn't change that.

Special Ed wrote:

I hear ya, I'm not saying the fashion industry isn't partialy to blame. Just not the only one to blame.

P.S... Check out Allison above, she's pretty hot as well!

And so is her friend in her Viagra pic!

Chris Keeling wrote:

And so is her friend in her Viagra pic!

She is a cutie!

Shout out to Allison for the topless pic in your profile!   Wooooooooooo!!!

Marcus J. Ranum wrote:

Screw that! Have a fitness requirement. Make 'em run 3 miles in 20 minutes, do 20 push-ups, and 50 sit-ups.

I like my models skinny, lanky, and tight - so I'd be perfectly happy to see a bit of muscle on 'em.

I'd be ok with this if they are running in heels... Tyra would totally do this.

Special Ed wrote:

She is a cutie!

Shout out to Allison for the topless pic in your profile!   Wooooooooooo!!!

LoL

Nick Zantop wrote:

It's a fake image manipulated in photoshop. No one ever claimed that it was beautiful.

Get a reality check! This is a reality not a manipulation of a photograph. Clearly you havent been to any fashion shows!

Nick Zantop wrote:
I don't want links to discussions - I want you to cite me a fashion ad in which a model looks clearly unhealthy. If you are going to make bold statements you should be able to back them up with things besides what you hear on TV.

Chris Keeling wrote:
And again, I'm too lazy!  This is fun jacking with the Fashion Guy, why would I want to ruin it with having to do research? 

Chris Keeling wrote:
Listen, girls get Eating Disorders for a number of reasons.  It might be because of a Chemical Imbalance.  It might be because of the girl in her History Class who's thinner than her and going out with the guy she wants.  It might be because she wants thinks models are glamorous and wants to be like them.  Eliminating the Fashion World wouldn't eliminate the problem.  But to think that the Fashion World isn't a huge contributor to Eating Disorders Nationwide is just plain Naive!  Do I think that Nick Zantop can change the world if he has an epiphany?  No.  He's just playing by the rules given him.  But don't come in a Forum discussion and say the problem isn't real, or huge, because it is.

You're making increasingly bold claims. Assuming your aren't some kind of established expert on eating disorders and modeling you need to back your extreme claims up with some links to evidence. What you're saying is certainly not obvious but consistent with biases some have.

You need to pony up some evidence or you're just fearmongering and being an alarmist. The fact that you say you're "too lazy" is not much of an excuse.